Climate Change and Human Migration Series: Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Climate Displacement Decision-Making (TRN5-V55)

Transcript: Climate Change and Human Migration Series: Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Climate Displacement Decision-Making

[00:00:00 Video opens with animated CSPS logo.]

[00:00:06 Robert McLeman appears full screen. Text on screen: Robert McLeman; Professor, Wilfred Laurier University. / Robert McLeman; Professeur, Université Wilfred-Laurier.]

Robert McLeman: Hello and welcome, everyone. Our event today is called Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Climate Displacement Decision Making. It's the fourth event in a four-part series called Climate Change and Human Migration. My name is Robert McLeman. I'm a professor in the department of Geography and Environmental Studies at Wilfred Laurier University, and I'm a co-creator of this series.

I'm joining you today from the shared traditional territory of the neutral Anishinaabe and Haudenosaunee peoples. This land is called the Dish of One Spoon Treaty between the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabe peoples and symbolizes the agreement to share and protect our resources and not to engage in conflict. From the Haldimand Proclamation of October 25, 1784,

[00:00:52 Overlaid text on screen: Canada.ca/School; Climate Change and Human Migration Series, Integrating Indigenous Knowledge into Climate Displacement Decision Making. / Canada.ca/Ecole; Série sur le changement climatique et les migrations humaines, Intégrer le savoir autochtone à la prise de decisions relative aux déplacements liés au changement climatique.]

Robert McLeman: this territory is described as being 6 miles deep from each side of the river, now known as the Grand river, beginning at Lake Erie and extending in the proportion to the head of said river, which them and their posterity are to enjoy forever. This proclamation was signed by the British with their allies, the Six Nations, after the American Revolution. But despite being the largest reserve demographically in Canada, those Nations now reside on less than 5% of their original territory. Some of you today may be joining from other parts of the country, and I encourage you now to take a moment to recognize and acknowledge the territory that you're occupying today.

I'm pleased to introduce you all to our four outstanding speakers today. Our event will be moderated by Todd Kuiack, who is a former Canadian diplomat, with postings in Mexico, Chile, and Cuba, and his last overseas posting was as Ambassador to the Dominican Republic. He has also spent five years as the Director of Emergency Management at Indigenous Service Canada, where he was able to address the UN at the Disaster Risk Reduction conferences in Montreal, Mexico and Geneva. Todd is passionate about baseball as well as building community

[00:02:08 Split screen: Robert McLeman and Todd Kuiack.]

Robert McLeman: and is on the Indigenous Advisory Committee for the Toronto Blue Jays Care Foundation. He is currently the Director of Operations in Plans and Priorities at the Privy Council Office in Ottawa, where he was named by the Clerk as the Indigenous Champion.

[00:02:26 Split screen: Robert McLeman and Amy Cardinal Christianson.]

Robert McLeman: I would also like to introduce you today to Amy Cardinal Christianson, who is an Indigenous fire specialist at Parks Canada. Her research focuses on Indigenous fire stewardship, Indigenous wildland firefighters, wildfire evacuations, and Indigenous research methodologies. Since 2022, she has been a board member of the International Association of Wildland Fire. Amy also co-hosts the Good Fire podcast, which looks at Indigenous fire use around the world. She recently co-authored the books First Nations Wildfire Evacuations: A Guide for Communities and External Agencies, as well as Blazing the Trail: Celebrating Indigenous Fire Stewardship.

[00:03:11 Split screen: Robert McLeman and Simon Lambert.]

Robert McLeman: I'd also like to introduce you to Simon Lambert, who is the newly appointed Chief Science Advisor, Maori, for the Ministry of the Environment in New Zealand. Prior to that, he spent six years as a professor at the University of Saskatchewan in the Department of Indigenous Studies, where his research focused on disaster risk reduction and emergency management with Indigenous communities, particularly for urban Indigenous groups. His recent work has been focused on collaborating with international Indigenous colleagues to promote Indigenous voices at the UN global Platform on disaster risk reduction.

[00:03:49 Miguel Sioui appears full screen.]

Robert McLeman: Miguel Sioui is an associate professor in the Department of Geography and Environmental Studies at Wilfred Laurier University.

[00:03:54 Split screen: Robert McLeman and Miguel Sioui.]

Robert McLeman: His areas of expertise are in Indigenous knowledge, Indigenous land and water stewardship, environmental ethics, and environmental management. Miguel advocates for the integration of Indigenous knowledge into fields related to environmental management. In 2022, he contributed to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Six Assessment Report, on integrating Indigenous responsibility-based thinking into climate adaptation and mitigation strategies. And later this year, his chapter Indigenous Knowledge and the Way Forward, will be published by Oxford University Press in the collection entitled Canadian Politics and Policy.

[00:04:37 Robert McLeman appears full screen.]

Robert McLeman: Let me thank all our panelists for joining us today, and I will now pass the discussion and microphone over to you, Todd.

[00:04:42 Todd Kuiack appears full screen. Text on screen: Todd Kuiack; Indigenous Champion, Privy Council Office.]

Todd Kuiack: Thank you, Robert. [Indigenous language]

I'm very pleased to pass the mic to our first panelist, Miguel.

Miguel, the floor is yours.

[00:03:49 Miguel Sioui appears full screen. Text on screen: Miguel Sioui; Associate Professor, Wilfred Laurier University. / Professeur associé, Université Wilfred-Laurier.]

Miguel Sioui: Thank you very much, Todd, and thanks to everyone for attending. My name is Miguel Sioui. I'm a member of the Huron-Wendat First Nation. And so today I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Indigenous knowledge systems and their vital role in terms of climate resilience, climate adaptation mitigation, through some examples from my research and other Indigenous groups that I've interacted with and did research with over the last few years. Of course, global climate change has emerged as a very critical issue affecting Indigenous peoples worldwide, and it's presented multifaceted challenges that threaten traditional ways of life the world over, really. These challenges, of course, vary from region to region, and this illustrates the localized manifestations of environmental change and its impact on Indigenous communities.

For instance, in the Yucatan peninsula, home to the Maya people, rising temperatures there, and diminishing precipitation are leading to water scarcity. And this has affected agricultural practices and crop yields in recent years. Similarly, in the Canadian subarctic the Dehcho Dene First Nations are grappling with the consequences of permafrost thaw, and you'll see a series of images that are playing at the same time that indicate this.

This permafrost thaw and other localized manifestations of climate change in the subarctic has a tremendous impact on land-based livelihoods and cultural practices in the Dehcho. And the thawing of permafrost is profoundly impacting all dimensions of Dene land-based practices. It's leading to infrastructure damage, erosion, disruption of traditional activities, and even potential health risks as well. So, it's a great threat to the livelihoods and the lives of Indigenous peoples in the subarctic and other regions across the Americas and throughout the world.

But something that's quite promising is that Indigenous groups like the Dehcho First Nations have been increasingly engaging in cultural adaptation strategies and initiatives, including programs like community-based monitoring, infrastructure upgrades, livelihood diversification, and other cultural preservation efforts as well. But these comprehensive solutions really require collaboration among governments, researchers, NGOs, and Indigenous communities themselves to ensure that sustainability and resilience in Northern communities,

[00:07:49 Split screen: Miguel Sioui and images of the effects of permafrost thaw from 2003 to 2020. Text on screen: Permafrost Thaw/Dégel du pergélisol (Scotty Creek, dehcho, Northwest Territories/ Territoires du Nord-Ouest.]

Miguel Sioui: and other communities as well, are able to thrive and to collectively come together and address permafrost thaw and other localized or regional manifestations of climate change.

So, Indigenous peoples have long viewed themselves as stewards of the land, and I'd say most Indigenous groups or communities are guided by a profound sense of responsibility toward the environment.

[00:08:23 Split screen: Miguel Sioui, and a photo loop of images of modern Northern landscapes.]

Miguel Sioui: And this perspective, which is rooted in Indigenous worldviews and cultural traditions, emphasizes the interconnectedness of all living beings and the imperative, really the cultural imperative, to care for the land. So, for instance, this concept of responsibility-based thinking, as I've come to term it among my own Huron-Wendat people and ancestors and other Indigenous communities, really underscores the idea that humans have a duty and a responsibility to protect and preserve the environment, or simply the land if we use a more Indigenous terminology, not only for our benefit as the current generation of people or humans living here, but also for future generations and the broader ecological community.

So, this holistic approach to environmental stewardship is deeply embedded in Indigenous knowledge systems, and it informs Indigenous responses to climate change as well. And increasingly, scientists and policymakers have been recognizing the value of Indigenous knowledge, or IK, in addressing these pressing global challenges like climate change and other environmental stewardship challenges as well. So, IK encompasses traditional ecological knowledge, or TEK, that is a knowledge system that's passed down through generations, oftentimes orally. And this offers insights into local ecosystems, weather patterns, sustainable land management practices, and just a whole host of other realities or conditions on the land on a day-to-day basis.

For instance, and I believe Amy is going to address or speak to this, this is the traditional practice of controlled burning among a large number of Indigenous groups throughout the Americas and elsewhere. This has been shown to mitigate the risk of wildfires by reducing fuel accumulation and promoting general ecosystem health, among other things. And similarly, in present day Mexico, the Yucatec Maya's longstanding and intimate cultural understanding of the local environment has enabled this community, this Indigenous group, to develop resilient agricultural techniques and practices that are very much situated to their region's climate conditions and environmental realities in the Yucatan today.

So, Indigenous peoples in this sense, have been drawing on their deep connection to the land, and they're leading a multitude of efforts to reimagine or reconsider humanity's relationship with the Earth, or the land, and advocate for more inclusive and equitable approaches to environmental governance as well.

So, there's a tremendous and deep value, I believe, in terms of Indigenous knowledge and climate change mitigation adaptation practices and policy as well. And as I've said, scientists and policymakers the world over have begun to recognize the value of Indigenous knowledge in addressing climate change and other environmental stewardship challenges, so there's a lot to learn from Indigenous peoples in this regard, I believe. And so, Indigenous knowledge systems are oftentimes rooted in what Indigenous scholars have described as a relational worldview. This relational worldview has offered valuable insights into the very complex interplay between human beings and their various environments.

So, for example, among the Dehcho First Nations in the Northwest Territories, traditional teachings and Dene law emphasize this interconnectedness of all living beings and a reciprocal relationship between humans and the natural world. In this sense, the concept of responsibility-based thinking underscores, again, Indigenous people's ethical commitment to caring for the land and also honouring ancestral ties to the environment through various land use activities that are carried out on a day-to-day basis in Indigenous communities. So, this perspective, this cultural approach, is quite different from western approaches to environmental management and relationships with the environment. And those western approaches, you could say, are more predicated on rights-based frameworks which prioritize individual entitlements over collective responsibilities to the land. And so, I certainly believe that responsibility-based approaches offer a more holistic understanding of human environment relationships that are grounded in principles of reciprocity and mutual respect. Incorporating some of these principles, a more responsibility-based approach to land use and management, requires a shift away from linear or text-based forms of knowledge transmission towards more experiential and relational modes of learning that are innate in Indigenous approaches.

So, for instance, the oral tradition of storytelling among the Yucatec Maya, the Dehcho First Nations as well, and virtually all Indigenous peoples the world over, serves as a means of passing down ecological knowledge from one generation to the next, and this preserves traditional wisdom in the face of environmental change. In Arctic regions, Inuit elders play a crucial role in transmitting traditional ecological knowledge to younger generations through this relational, kind of direct experience and oral storytelling, as I've been describing.

And so, this intimate understanding of different aspects or elements in the natural world, or the environment, or the land, includes an understanding of sea ice dynamics, wildlife behaviour and weather patterns that's all essential for survival in Arctic environments. By engaging in activities like hunting, fishing, navigation and ceremonial land use practices, Inuit land users in the Arctic learn firsthand about the importance of respecting and protecting this delicate balance in the Arctic ecosystem. I believe that incorporating this responsibility-based approach and way of thinking into environmental governance in Canada and elsewhere, requires embracing experiential and relational modes of learning that honour this interconnectedness of humans and the environment.

So, some lessons learned, just to wrap up this discussion on IK and its vital role in climate policy and climate change adaptation and mitigation, is that firstly, I believe that Indigenous communities emphasize the importance of adaptation and resilience in responding to climate and other environmental changes. And so, rather than viewing nature as static or fixed, Indigenous peoples understand that ecosystems are dynamic and interconnected, requiring flexible strategies to cope with shifting conditions. For example, the Yucatec Maya have been practicing milpa-based agriculture for over 5000 years in the Yucatan, so they've been directly responsible for managing these ecosystems within the Yucatan peninsula. And through observation, ceremonial land use practices and all of this kind of framework based in a cultural precept of respect for the environment and responsibility-based thinking, they've been able to withstand many, many changes over this 5000-year period, and probably most recently, colonialism and complete upheaval of their cultural land use practices and governance systems. And today, as I've done research with the Yucatec Maya over the last few years, especially during my PhD research, I've learned that their land use systems are very capable of dealing with uncertainty and change and fluctuations in rainfall and temperature, for instance.

I think that another key lesson is that Indigenous stewardship practices prioritize holistic and cross-cultural approaches to land and water management. And so, for instance, we hear about terms like Two-eyed Seeing that was developed by Mi'kmaq elder Doctor Albert Marshall, and ways of thinking that are able to incorporate and integrate different cultural knowledge systems into one land management approach, where we're embracing western scientific knowledge as well as traditional cultural systems to developing more complete, comprehensive or holistic land management systems.

And lastly, Indigenous stewardship is grounded in principles of intergenerational equity and responsibility, and so this ensures that resources and the environment in general are managed sustainably for future generations. So, through these customary laws, like Dene law in Northern Canada, and other cultural traditions, Indigenous communities prioritize the preservation of land and water for the well-being of all human and other than human beings and our relatives, so to speak, for generations to come.

So, just to sum up my discussion, Indigenous perspectives on land stewardship offer very valuable insights into sustainable land-based relationships and climate change adaptation as well. And I think that there's a lot to learn from Indigenous knowledge systems through supporting, especially Indigenous led research initiatives, community-based approaches to research and climate change adaptation. And this way we can build towards a more resilient and equitable future for all Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities in the face of these increasingly complex global challenges such as climate change.

[00:18:19 Todd Kuiack appears full screen.]

Todd Kuiack: What a great start. Great perspective. Thank you so much, Miguel. Now I'd love to introduce our second panelist, Amy. Thank you so much for being here today. Amy, it's great to see you again. I'm going to pass the mic over to you.

[00:18:35 Amy Cardinal Christianson appears full screen. Text on screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson; Indigenous Fire Specialist, Parks Canada / Spécialiste du feu autochtone, Parcs Canada.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: [Indigenous language] Todd, so thanks so much for having me here today. My name is Amy Cardinal Christianson. I'm Métis from Treaty Eight Territories, that's Northern Alberta. My family is the Cardinal-Labakan families and they're from pièces C SPAN, which was disenfranchised by the Canadian government after the Northwest Resistance.

[00:19:03 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and two book covers, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: I'm currently in Treaty Six Territory and I live in a little town called Rocky Mountain House. So, the reason I'm mentioning that is because where I live is that we're a part of fire. So, we had a lot of fires last year, we're probably ramping up again for another big season with the drought we're in, in Alberta. So yes, I'm going to present today specifically on wildfire and on First Nation Wildfire Evacuations. So, next slide please.

[00:19:03 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, maybe I can just explain about the First Nations Wildfire Evacuation Partnership. This was a group of researchers that were brought together, First Nation communities who were evacuated in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and Alberta. And then agencies [that] are responsible for conducting or providing support during these evacuations. And I think, Todd, this was where we met, was around this initiative.

So, it started in 2013, but most of the evacuations that we studied were between 2011 and 2016. Next slide, please.

[00:20:09 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: And so, I just wanted to give some background on why this was important. In Canada, this is the Wildland Fire area, burned between 1980 and 2021. This doesn't include the 2023 season, which, again, we saw unprecedented fires across Canada. But I can tell you that from this map, much of what burned in 2023 was in these areas that experience recurrent burns. There's lots of fire activity on the landscape, but what we saw that was different was really the amount of high intensity and high severity wildfires that occurred across Canada starting in April and then occurring all the way until the end of September. So, it was a very long summer. Next slide.

[00:20:59 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: And so, when we look at Wildland fire evacuations, our map basically follows the same thing, these are communities that were evacuated between 1980 and 2021. And so, the grey dots are non-Indigenous communities, and then the orange dots are Indigenous communities. These don't have to be reserves, this is just communities that we've identified as having greater than 50% Indigenous populations.

And so, the bigger the dot, the bigger the number of evacuees. So, again, we can see throughout Quebec, up throughout the entire boreal forest, and then a real hotspot in the interior of British Columbia. Next slide.

[00:21:43 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, looking at percentage of evacuation orders. These are only orders, they're not alerts but communities that actually had to leave, is the first column there, and then percentage of evacuees, so that's people who were evacuated. And so, British Columbia has the greatest number of evacuation events and evacuees. Alberta actually comes in second for the number of evacuees, but lots of that was because of the city of Fort McMurray, which was 100,000 people that were evacuated in one event, so it kind of skews our results a little bit. And then, again, we go through British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, basically all the provinces that you would kind of expect to see evacuations. But what I would say is that no one has been unaffected by wildfire evacuations across Canada, even well, Nunavut, right now we haven't had any evacuations, but that's really the only place across, or the only territory in Canada. Next slide.

[00:22:50 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, this one is evacuation start and end date. It looks a little confusing, but I'll walk you through. So, on the left is the National picture: BC, Alberta, Ontario, going down. And across the top, we have the months of the year. So, January, February, March, April, and then May, June, July, August, which is usually when we see the most wildfire evacuations. And so, the length of the line is also how long the evacuation was.

And so, usually our duration of evacuation in Canada is about eight days for a wildfire evacuation where people are out of their home. But what we see is that it's much longer for Indigenous peoples and that there still are many, many communities that were evacuated from wildfire had significant impacts who still aren't home. We see that in Lytton, we see Little Red River Cree Nation, up north in Manitoba, there's still people out.

So, it's something to really consider is that even though these kind of show an end date, there's a lot of evacuations that are still unresolved, and this gets into this whole idea of migration of people and that people are still living, being impacted by evacuations that might have happened years ago to them.

So again, to point out in this picture, BC usually has their evacuations in July and August, so later in the summer. Alberta is a bit of an outlier because the evacuations usually occur in May and June, so you can see the dark spot there. So, what we saw last year was really similar to what we normally see. But again, we sometimes see evacuations in December in Alberta from wildfire. And so, really, almost every single month of the year might have wildfire evacuations depending on the conditions. Next slide.

[00:24:45 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, what's really important to point out is that about 5% of the Canadian population identifies as Indigenous. We have a lot of urban Indigenous people or Indigenous people who don't live in Indigenous communities. So, what's even more impressive is that, of those communities with greater than 50% Indigenous population, they make up 42% of wildfire evacuation events in Canada. So, these people are incredibly disproportionately impacted by wildfire and, the bad part is, are mainly kept out of decision making about wildfire on their landscapes. Next slide.

[00:25:26 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So again, turning back to the partnership, the First Nation Welfare Evacuation Partnership, what happened with this was that we were hearing a lot from agencies and other people about what it was like dealing with First Nations' issues with jurisdiction. But at that point, no one had really talked to people that were members of those communities.

So, we formed partnerships with seven different communities across Canada, and they're on the stars there, where they had recently been evacuated, quite a few were air evacuations, where the Department of Defence was required to come in and help them evacuate their communities. And so, what we did was we ended up talking to people about these experiences. Next slide.

[00:26:14 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: We used, at that time, qualitative social science research methods. We had research assistants from communities who did the research. We had band council resolutions from all the different First Nations that we worked with who helped lead what we were looking at in each community, and then we did a tonne of fieldwork. More than 200 interviews were conducted with evacuees, leaders and residents who stayed behind, which is another important thing that I'll get into. And so, we spoke to youth, adults, and elders. Next slide.

[00:26:49 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: We did publish a bunch of academic papers on this, but what I would point people to is the book that we developed, so First Nations Wildfire Evacuations, and you can find it on Amazon or UBC press, and it really takes a very in depth look at evacuations, but through stories, so it's a really easy read that also goes into a bunch of different recommendations for both communities that they can take when preparing for and going through evacuation, and also for external agencies when they're having to work with Indigenous communities.

And so, the book goes through, [and] every chapter is a different stage. So, deciding to evacuate, for example, seeing a fire on the landscape; putting a plan into motion; troubleshooting transportation, like how do we get people out of the community; finding accommodations; taking care of evacuees; and returning home. And so, there were many bad stories that we heard about. There was also lots of good things. And so, some of the Nations, for example, Lac La Ronge Indian Band with Stanley Mission, they were great at their evacuation until they encountered the external jurisdiction and all the other issues.

Another thing is returning home and the problem with finances. Many Nations are expected to pay upfront for evacuation costs. They then can claim some of these costs, but almost all the communities that we talked to were hundreds of thousands out of pocket in evacuation costs that they weren't going to get reimbursed for, which can be devastating to a community that's already dealing with financial issues. Next slide.

[00:28:33 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: And so again, don't look too hard at this. I know it's probably very small text on everyone's screen, but I just wanted to point you to this infographic that's available on the website for the Partnership. And this is real practical steps that agencies can take for dealing with communities, and for communities to look at. What I really wanted to focus on was staying behind.

So, we often act in evacuations that the media always picks up on, "Oh, there's people that are staying behind and disobeying evacuation orders." But this happens during every single evacuation. This is not a new thing. And we need to start working with people who are making that decision to stay behind rather than criminalizing them in our minds. Lots of people have very good reasons for staying behind, lots of very good knowledge that will keep them safe when they stay behind. Again, it's just having that education piece and working with those people on positive things that they can bring to the evacuation. Next slide.

[00:29:40 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, why are we seeing all these evacuations across Canada? We have increasing risk, and I know this webinar is focused on climate change, which, of course, is contributing to our risk. There's lots of great physical science coming out about that. There's lots of elders who often speak to the changing conditions in their territories. But with fire, there's also other things that are causing problems. And so, one is fire exclusion.

So, we're really good at putting out fires in Canada, right? That's what most people say. But that's led to incredible fuel buildups through fire exclusion and fire suppression on the landscape, as well as forest management practices. So, the idea of cut blocks and leaving tonnes of slash, that's then available to burn. And new research is coming out showing how much better fire will move and how much more intensely it will burn through those cut blocks. So, yes, there's lots of different things. Also, the idea of monocultures, or promoting certain species to burn. And then expansion of the wildland urban interface into areas that are of high risk for wildfire. Next slide.

[00:30:50 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, as Miguel kind of mentioned earlier, all my work at the moment is now around Indigenous cultural burning practices. This is how Indigenous people sought to replace fires of chance across the landscape, so lightning-caused fires or arson-caused fires, with fires of choice. And so, commonly across Canada, you hear it referred to as cleaning the land. And I actually haven't met a Nation yet from east to west coast to the north in Canada that didn't use fire in some capacity. But the difference between cultural fire and what we see agencies do now with prescribed fire is that we were using fire to achieve specific cultural objectives.

And so, one side benefit of that was that, yes, it would reduce the risk, but the quotes were that they didn't set the forest on fire just for the sake of burning, but so they could return to hunt the next year and live. And I just wanted to add, too, that lots of people think this practice isn't occurring, or that the knowledge has all been lost or taken from us through colonization. But you know what? We were out burning yesterday. We had a beautiful burn window here. We were out on the landscape doing it. When you know the time to burn, it's a very low-risk activity when you follow proper governance and protocols. So, next slide.

[00:32:01 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, yes, looking here, you can see on the top left is basically what we used to see on the Canadian landscape. Lots of open patches. You had mixed mosaic forests, lots of biodiversity. There's a small cultural burn going on as well as a lightning strike up in the mountains, but things are just burning with really good severity, nothing's getting too burnt. Then in the middle one, it shows when we started suppressing fires, so you can see the vegetation really growing in, we're losing those meadows. And then on the bottom is what we're seeing with those really high intensity fires where they're burning the entire thing. And, because there's no mosaic or biodiversity on the landscape, it's just burning through the entire forest. Next slide.

[00:33:04 Split screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson and slide, as described.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, issues. At the moment, I know we're going to get into this more in the question period, but there's low recognition of Indigenous expertise related to fire. There's massive power dynamics related to Indigenous sovereignty and land back movements. Many Indigenous people don't even have land that they could steward. There's non-Indigenous interest and appropriation of this knowledge. There's no sustained funding, so we get a lot of funding for one burn, but not any sort of landscape scale stewardship. There's one off projects and overwhelming requests. And to me it comes down to a social justice issue.

As I said, we're the people that are most impacted by fire in Canada yet have the least power in any sort of decisions around it. And so, I think that's my last slide there. Yes, just a thank you. Thank you for the subtle clues there, Todd, that works well.

[00:33:57 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Merci, Amy, thank you for your excellent presentation. I'm now going to invite my old friend, Simon, to present next. Kia ora, Simon. And thank you very much for joining us this early in the morning from Auckland. I am beyond impressed. Over to you and we'll come back to you, Amy and Miguel, in the questions and answers.

[00:34:16 Simon Lambert appears full screen. Text on screen: Simon Lambert; Chief Science Advisor (Maori), Ministry for the Environment, New Zealand / Conseiller scientifique en chef (Maori), Ministère de l'environnement, Nouvelle-Zélande.]

Simon Lambert: Oh, kia ora, Todd, kia ora koutou. Thank you, Miguel, and Amy, for setting the path there. Yes, my name is Simon Lamb, but we all wear many hats, and I'm currently Chief Science Advisor (Maori) for the Ministry for the Environment back in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I want to acknowledge my friends from Treaty Six Territory and my Métis friends too, in Saskatchewan. I spent several lovely years there in the Indigenous State department at the university. I continued my research, which was on Disaster Risk Reduction in Indigenous Communities, and I started that after a series of earthquakes here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, 2011, Christchurch, which is where I live now. It's in the South Island, just visiting the Auckland metropolis at the moment.

And what I was seeing there was we were working with urban Maori. And it's come up several times already, it's something we even are reluctant to talk of ourselves, that we're actually primarily an urban people now here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. We have been since my father's generation. Around the world, Indigenous peoples are going to the cities, to towns, to urban areas. And why wouldn't you? They're exciting. There's always something going on. There's cinema, there's education, there's health services, there's all these things.

So, we have this issue of disconnection from our traditional territories. And if you get disconnected from the land, and again, this is implicit in the conversation so far, you can't help but have a less solid relationship with culture, with language, with elders, with knowledge keepers and so on. We've been dealing with this as Maori, as I say now for two, going into three generations. And I hear similar stories around the world, that people are losing languages, losing cultural practices, losing direct access to traditional territories.

So, when we talk of disasters, the primary disaster that all Indigenous peoples are dealing with is colonization. We are still responding to colonization. So, why can we not better mitigate wildfires on our territories? Colonization has undermined our rights, or the rights and the ability of people to govern themselves in a safe manner to mitigate, avoid, remedy the hazards that they have often intergenerational experience of, but over millennia.

I also want to give a shout out to a friend of ours, Todd. John Scott, Tlingit tribal member who's been working in the DRR space for probably over two decades now, based in and around Washington DC, lobbying for attention, for space, for resourcing for Indigenous peoples. And so, he and others were pulling us together in the UNDRR space. And there's quite a number of publications out there, you can google them. The marvels of modern technology. It's all out there. We almost have too much information. How can we distill what we need to know?

There's a publication that UNISDR put out, and John was one of the co-authors on that. It's over ten years ago now, but it was just simple steps that local government leaders could take to reduce their disaster risks. And I'll run through them shortly.

And what we're seeing now - as I say, I now work for the New Zealand Government, I still keep my hand in some research and [I'm] still doing research through the University of Saskatchewan - but government states everywhere are struggling to get ahead of the curve in this, what we could call a triple planetary crisis. There's climate change, there's biodiversity loss, and there's pollution. All governments are struggling to deal with that.

One of the patterns in liberal democracies we see now is the devolution of power to local governments. And Indigenous governments, Indigenous communities, can actually benefit from this in the sense that they will get the ability and the space to take more decision-making roles as the state steps back out of very overt control of land, of territory and environment and so on. However, there's still a huge challenge there because what are the local government leaders to do? You've got so many issues to deal with.

Anyway, the UNISDR put out this basic checklist, a handbook for local government leaders. And the first one they have is, place organizations in place and coordinate understanding to reduce disaster risk. Simply have a structure, a citizen group, civil society that has that on the agenda, literally an agenda item. And build local alliances. And John Scott, of course, went through all this and goes, well, what does this mean for Indigenous peoples? And quite simply, respect the institutions and organizations of Indigenous peoples when building these alliances and coordinating disaster risk reduction.

Amy mentioned money earlier, and it's going to come up in all discussions with Indigenous peoples.

[00:39:39 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Simon Lambert: If there's a budget for disaster risk reduction and there's incentives for homeowners and communities to, in some way, manage the risks that they're seeing, there needs to be culturally appropriate incentives for Indigenous communities. We have a cultural response to these things.

[00:39:59 Simon Lambert appears full screen.]

Simon Lambert: All communities have culture. Our cultures have great ancient roots in the land and the territory, and huge understanding, as Miguel outlined, on Indigenous knowledges.

And a key thing, too, we see, is the need to have up to date data on hazards and vulnerabilities. This is a rapidly changing space. I get a newsfeed on various disaster research projects, and I see these lines on the sea temperature for the Pacific and the Atlantic. Others may be watching this as well. And there are some significant physical changes to our environment which have been predicted for many years, but we actually lack the data at local level. I know the sea temperature of the Atlantic in the Canadian North. I know that this is serious, I know that it's important. But what does that mean for my community several thousand miles away?

Data is expensive to gather. There is no guarantee that a research institute or a department will have the budget to maintain long term data. We are seeing here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, some really important databases running out of funding. And sometimes you look at the funding and it's kind of nickel and dimes, but there's someone somewhere with an Excel spreadsheet making decisions on which data is collected and how it's communicated.

So again, in that space, we need to disaggregate data by sex, by ethnicity, and ensure that languages are noted and that we can disseminate this, including traditional means of communication, which will be oral. We need to be able to communicate complex issues in a simple manner for all communities. And our communities have that culturally framed communication method. We need to invest in critical infrastructure to reduce hazards and risks. Floods and fires seem to be predominant now around the world.

Here in New Zealand, we are having wildfires, which we didn't before. We looked across [the] Tasman Sea to our friends in Australia, and again, they also have cultural burning practices there. And you'll get, occasionally, if it wasn't such a bad season, but you'll see these beautiful orange sunsets and sunrises here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, because our friends across in Australia are having a particularly bad wildfire season. People forget that before COVID, there was a number of mega fires [in] California and in Australia. You may remember images of tourists gathering on the beach in Australia to escape the smoke and flames. Then there was COVID, and we kind of - a very human response - partition out really, really terrible things and try to just focus on what's immediately in front of us.

So again, for local Indigenous leaders, they are juggling so many different things. At any point of their day, 24/7, they can get a text message, a phone call, emergency disaster response, and then the recovery after that takes a huge amount of effort and time, and you have a cascading next urgency, next disaster to deal with.

So again, that investment in critical infrastructure - very, very difficult for our communities - and that needs to be in collaboration with the relevant Indigenous communities, the ones who actually have that connection to land and territory. Schools and health facilities are very important, so upgrading those. And again, in collaboration with the relevant Indigenous communities and their leaders.

Realistic risk compliant regulations and land use planning principles. Identifying safe land for our communities, upgrading informal settlements wherever possible. What we're seeing in recoveries is that people will slap together some emergency housing, or they'll be living in a trailer, car, or something. This is actually becoming a standard recovery and there [are] not the resources to then rebuild safe, well-located housing. And, unfortunately, it just builds in place the next disaster. So, health disasters, mould, overcrowding, all these sorts of things our communities are having to face because we are responding continually to evacuations, to disasters, relocating communities, and so on.

And so, taking into account our land use practices: education programs, training, again, bringing in our languages, our culturally framed approaches to teaching, to education, to learning, bringing in our leadership and using local Indigenous institutions when and where possible. Ecosystems have come up time and time again. What are our nature-based solutions? Many of you will be familiar with that term. How can climate adaption plans and measures appropriately work in with our knowledge holders?

Early warning systems. There's been a lot of research projects using Indigenous knowledges around early warning systems. Again, how can these integrate with traditional practices? But of course, when we have these traditional early warning systems, it doesn't mean that we don't use our phones, google. I google the weather wherever I go. There's technology out there and it's just as any new technology available to our peoples in the past, they interrogated it, they saw how they could adapt it to their means, to their lifestyles. We see this in hunting, we see this in fishing. We're not going to use tools that are a thousand years old to address these issues. We expect, in fact demand as a right, access to all the latest technologies that will help us plan and adapt to climate change.

And finally, taking into account Indigenous spiritual healing systems and medicine practices, what we actually have is a crisis of anxiety. We have mental health concerns around the world. We have increasing youth anxiety. What is the message we send to young people around the world when you say, "Oh look, sorry, but we're screwed, we're all going to be burning in twelve years' time" etc., etcetera. And the richest people are building rockets and looking at leaving the planet. What is the message to young people? How do we expect them to interpret all this? They are actually now in a time of climate anxiety, it's becoming universal. And Indigenous peoples have, in many ways regrettably, had to deal with the anxiety of massive change, radical change, of losing power and control over land and environment and communities through colonization. We have these incredibly resilient spiritual systems that some people have cherry picked and googled and cut and paste and tried to frame up as some sort of, often a business, but it is out there, and it is something that many, many Indigenous leaders are more than happy to share and more than happy to make available if it is done in an appropriate and respectful manner. I could talk all day, Todd, you know that.

There are three key things that I see Indigenous peoples dealing with in this time of climate change. One is the vulnerability of livelihoods. So, we still have many, many people in rural areas. We still have people who maintain what we could call traditional lifestyles, hunting and fishing and all that. The second thing being those ecosystems are declining. They're under huge pressures from climate change. And the third thing I'd point out, unsustainable development. Too often our traditional lands and territories, we've lost control of them. We have unsustainable development put on them. Whether it's resource extraction, whether it's urban sprawl, whether it's pollution. And so, this maldevelopment, maladaptation, now we're seeing that at a scale where we're starting to run out of safe places to live.

I'll finish this part with one story. I was in New York at a UNDRR event last year. I'm walking down the street. I recognize a Pacific elder, and I greet him, and we have a conversation. He was from Kiribati, a series of very, very low-lying atolls. And I'd remembered a news item from some time ago when the Kiribati Government purchased about 500 hectares in Fiji as a possible refuge from sea level rise. What happened was that - well, understand it from an Indigenous perspective - how do you purchase somebody else's land? And what the elder said is, he held up his hands like this and goes, well, we may own the land, but the land is not ours.

What we have is a whole lot of communities having to move from their traditional territories to other peoples' territories. We are actually relying on charity. And if you step back and take that even further, are we looking at the recolonization of Indigenous peoples as we see a so-called managed retreat from high-risk zones, coastal areas, floodplains and so on? And are we going to lose control again of our lands and territories as non-Indigenous peoples look for somewhere else to live?

[00:49:33 Todd Kuiack appears full screen.]

Todd Kuiack: Kia ora, [Indigenous language], Simon, I really enjoy talking to you and listening. I'm always conscious of the fact that here we are bringing in three Indigenous experts to talk about traditional Indigenous knowledges and then cutting them off because we want to get to questions and answers. We want to hear your voices, but we've only given you so much time. So, I have made a conscious decision to cut back the panel discussion into, instead of this being a long, drawn-out affair, I'm going to do kind of rapid questions, and then that's going to allow for time for questions and answers because we really want our audience to participate today.

[00:50:10 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: So, Miguel, I'm going to bring you back into it right away. I'm just going to ask you very straightforward questions. In what way do traditional academic structures create barriers for integrating Indigenous knowledge into fields related to environmental management or policy making? I wonder if you could address that in a minute and a half?

Miguel Sioui: Sure. Yes. Thank you, Todd.

Todd Kuiack: Cheers.

Simon Lambert: Yes.

<Entire panel laughs.>

[00:50:32 Miguel Sioui appears full screen. Text on screen: Miguel Sioui; Associate Professor, Wilfred Laurier University. / Professeur associé, Université Wilfred-Laurier.]

Miguel Sioui: Well, I think it all boils down to one point that I addressed in my presentation about, really, a disconnect. A chasm between western linear thinking approaches and Indigenous circular or relational approaches to just living. Living with the land, essentially.

So, western institutions have, of course, historically prioritized these linear cause and effect models of understanding the world around us, including the land or the environment. And so, this emphasizes individual rights and a very compartmentalized approach to decision making as well, in terms of land use and management.

In contrast, Indigenous knowledge systems tend to be holistic and interconnected and relational. And I think that that's a point that was spoken to by all three of us today. Amy, as well as Simon. And so, I think that that's where the challenge lies, really. It's bridging that gap and making sure that Indigenous perspectives that prioritize collective responsibility and stewardship over individual entitlement and rights we really have to address that issue right there. I think that that's what's at stake when we're talking about these challenges and barriers. And academia, of course, has been very complicit in this and has been really kind of a knowledge production and generation arm of these colonial institutions through time and still today.

[00:52:19 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: That's an amazing answer for minute and a half, honestly, I could listen to that, I'm sure, [for] an entire lecture, if not an entire course.

I'm going to go to Amy at this point, a fellow civil servant, and perhaps this question might lead us into some further discussion. But we've been encouraged all along, as Indigenous people and as people working with Indigenous peoples, on emergency management, on climate adaptation, et cetera, when incorporating traditional knowledge, to consider solutions not as products but as part of the process. What are some of the challenges or barriers you've seen when trying to integrate Indigenous knowledge with western knowledge, either in government or in research environments? So, I wonder, Amy, if you might be able to speak to that?

[00:53:05 Amy Cardinal Christianson appears full screen. Text on screen: Amy Cardinal Christianson; Indigenous Fire Specialist, Parks Canada / Spécialiste du feu autochtone, Parcs Canada.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: Sure. Thanks, Todd. So, for me, I think I'm actually trying to move away from the terms of braiding, integrating those things, because what I'm seeing is just this danger with it. For example, with cultural fire practices, a lot of wildfire management agencies want to integrate or include cultural fire in their current existing programs. But basically, what I'm finding is that it means that they want to take the parts that they like and put it into their programs to kind of give them reasoning behind what they're doing or to get public buy in, but then excluding the parts that they maybe don't like, like the cultural things, the spiritual elements, who should be involved, and who should be there.

And so, for me, that's been really difficult with fire, because I think my thing has always been Indigenous leadership in this area. So now, when I'm talking about government integrating or having Indigenous programs, it's through Indigenous led initiatives. And so, for money going directly to communities who want to do this work, rather than government creating a new group to integrate this knowledge. Let's give the money to communities and some power devolution there and see what the Nations can do.

[00:54:23 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: I think that's a fantastic answer. Thank you so much. So, Simon, I'm going to come back to you. I didn't give you much of a break there, but I'm wondering, you've been talking about data, and I think that's really important in these days.

Data collection and, of course, the ever-present aspect of AI will factor into the way forward. How can non-Indigenous researchers and policymakers best connect with Indigenous communities in a respectful and mutually beneficial manner to co-develop solutions for environmental management and climate adaptation?

[00:54:58 Simon Lambert appears full screen. Text on screen: Simon Lambert; Chief Science Advisor (Maori), Ministry for the Environment, New Zealand / Conseiller scientifique en chef (Maori), Ministère de l'environnement, Nouvelle-Zélande.]

Simon Lambert: The data landscape is really, and rapidly, changing. And actually, I was in conversations just yesterday on exactly this. And so, Indigenous peoples, in our demands for sovereignty, include data in that. So, we talk of data sovereignty. That actually the data that emanates from our communities, from our lands, our waters, our resources, we actually claim that data. So, it's really, in some respects, contentious. It's like any ownership issue. The data sciences are a very natural technological expression of the human anxiety of simply not knowing what's going on now and into the future. And we also want to know what has happened in the past. Current data landscapes are dominated by privately owned, planetary scale computation models and technologies that elevate - let's be honest - instantaneous, trivial desires, and produce some pretty negative social effects. I mean, protecting our young people from the worst of what can happen on the Internet, it's 24/7 right?

When we look at how non-Indigenous groups, organizations, peoples, and let's include governments in that, can contribute if we just looked at the data space. We are stacking data. There's this concept of stacking data in an integrated way, making stuff available. There's modularity. Stuff is programmable, flexible, tweakable, customizable for our own purposes and needs. Equitable. I mean, hardware, software, justice. How can we have the latest and the - I mean, we can't even update stuff for the latest software in time because of the download speeds and the costs and so on. How can it be responsive? How can it be sustainable across multiple generations? How can we have sensing and modelling in the climate space that enables us to respond in real time to protect our communities?

And we've seen a lot over the last few years with COVID, a very data heavy response. Climate change is demanding that same sort of response. And we expect our non-Indigenous partners and allies to understand and work with us in that data space.

[00:57:21 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Thank you for that, Simon. I'm just being told that there's a few questions coming in, but I'm going to ask one more question from each of you and I'll start in again, reverse order. We'll go with Miguel. We're just going to ask each and every one of you, what is the one thing - you've had your time to speak a little bit, I wish we could have given a little bit more, we've asked just one kind of a general question - but what is the one thing that you want us, all of these viewers, there's over a thousand people online today, all public servants working in this space. What is the one thing that you want them to take away from this session?

[00:58:00 Miguel Sioui appears full screen.]

Miguel Sioui: Yes, thank you, Todd. That's a great question. And you know, I think that as a final reflection, I believe that, again, this Indigenous responsibility-based thinking that I've just been talking about since the beginning of this event today, it offers really invaluable lessons and perspectives in my mind.

I remember this one Maya elder, who I was interviewing for my PhD research, talked about the concept of "k'eexpajal ", which means change in the Maya language. And how that's a term, a concept that's embedded in the Maya cultural land use and management strategy. It's been that way for probably thousands of years. That recognition, that change is just a constant. It's a normal way of doing things. It's just innate in the environment, and so it should be in our management practices as well, and in our relationships with the land.

And I think that once you recognize and accept uncertainty and change, then it necessarily leads to a responsibility-based way of thinking about the land and approaching our relationships as human stewards in all our dealings with our relatives on the land, human and other than human beings, as well as generations to come in the future.

So, I think that it's definitely a perspective and approach that could allow us to re-envision our relationship as a global society with the environment and the way in which we react to and address climate change as well and other major environmental issues of the present day.

[00:59:55 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Thank you so much. And Amy, I'm going to pass to you same question with the same thousand people that are watching, all public servants looking to work with Indigenous partners to tackle this climate change issues. What is the one thing that you're trying to communicate today?

Amy Cardinal Christianson: Sure. So, I'll just go for it and say funding. There is a lot of money in this space right now, but we are seeing very little actually going to Indigenous communities in Canada, when we consider the entire pot. There's a lot of money now going to research, going to academic institutes, to non-Indigenous researchers, being money going to universities for that work. We're seeing government departments, as I said, kind of ramping up employees and other people in these areas to administer programs. But again, very little is actually getting onto the ground.

And so, I just wanted to commend the efforts of ECCC, Environment Canada and Climate Change, and the First Nation National Guardian Network. That's a movement where the money is going directly through that Indigenous led group, to communities to form guardian programs in Nations.

[01:01:13 Amy Cardinal Christianson appears full screen.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: And so, [for] me, that's the future. That's a really great idea of collaboration and funding going directly to people that need it. So, yes, I hope that one day we'll see the same thing in fire. Thanks, Todd.

[01:01:20 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Absolutely. Thank you. Simon, same question, one last thing, and then we'll get into the questions, which the points will really add up there.

Simon Lambert: So, what I would say is that if you want to know what communities, non-Indigenous communities are going to have to deal with, look at Indigenous communities. That our histories, regrettably, provide a template for what happens when communities lose control of land, of water, of territories, are forced to be mobile when they don't want to be, are forced to be sedentary when they don't want to be. So, we are now seeing this huge flux, and Canada is going to have it as bad as anywhere, where entire infrastructure and communities are going to have to move.

Well, you have a history of that. We know that this has taken place in the past. And I think, again, regrettably, non-Indigenous peoples will be facing the same pressures: losing control; losing assets; having their investment portfolios evaporate overnight because of extreme weather events, and so on. So, again, regrettably, look to our communities, to how to respond to that, and how to maintain unity as best you can, and how to display this resilience that we talk about all the time. But that resilience has come from learning to respond to some externally imposed vulnerabilities.

Todd Kuiack: Absolutely. Thank you for that. So, I'm going to jump into the questions, and I think this one's for you, Amy. What is causing these large, massive fires this last year?

Amy Cardinal Christianson: So, I guess I'll go to my area, where my family's from, so that is Treaty Eight Territory, Lac La Biche, Fort McMurray. And so, what we see there is an area that has both had massive industrial impact, as you know, from the oil sands development, as well as forest management companies,

[01:03:17 Amy Cardinal Christianson appears full screen.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: and the extraction of timber resources, and then the exclusion of Indigenous fire practices across that entire landscape. So, what we tend to see then is the promotion, as I said, of monocultures, so these coniferous forest blankets. Like when you go to the mountains, and you look out and you see all these beautiful solid green landscapes? That is not beautiful. We have to get that out of our thinking. That is an area that's prone to disturbance, and so that's what we saw in Fort McMurray, too.

And then, because of how dry it is up there, the drought, the lack of precipitation, the warmer temperatures that we're seeing. What we're also seeing is that areas that would burn once and then not burn for 80 or 100 years after, are re-burning within three or five years. And then, with that re-burn, we're getting really significant impacts on the landscape, which is then impacting water and other things. And the water and fire are tied so delicately together that then that's influencing drinking water, other things for Nations.

So, yes, I mean, I could go on and on, but I know we're trying to get to a bunch of different questions. Thanks.

[01:04:27 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Right, that's great. And I think there's a lot of information in the system on there. I know ECCC has released a lot of information there in Canada on forest fires, but also the role of greenhouse gasses in climate change is, I think, a big one that everyone's been looking at.

So, I'm going to ask a question. It's actually for anyone. How can non-Indigenous peoples learn to work with Indigenous knowledge without being cultural appropriators? And I'm wondering, Miguel or Simon, either of you can jump in on this, or Amy, if you want to answer again, but I'm going to try to work in the other panelists. Simon, you look like you're leaning in.

Simon Lambert: It's a constant thing and it's one of those things - be careful what you ask for. So, Indigenous peoples have asked to be included, then suddenly it becomes difficult. Non-Indigenous people want to cooperate. I mean, if we're all coming from a place of equal power,

[01:05:19 Simon Lambert appears full screen.]

Simon Lambert: then you will have equal exchange and collaborative and synthesis and so on. All these things that we want. Gosh, face to face. We always want to work face to face. You want to establish a relationship; you want to look people in the eye. You get that trust. All right? It's fundamental to all cultures. It's really, really tricky. Situations are often on a knife edge. And I've seen this in universities.

So, if you have a program and then everything's going well and one person leaves and everything falls over. Or you lose an elderly or something. And it's based on relationship, it's very, very vulnerable. So, no answer. But appreciate the complexities, the dynamism, and the vulnerability of the Indigenous participants, that they've got communities behind them that have got their own dynamics and their own agendas and all that. And no individual's in control of everything.

And so, it's very, very difficult to have sustainable, long-term relationships where in institutions, government, academic research, programs change because of funding or governments or so on. Appreciate the complexities.

[01:06:28 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Oh, definitely, definitely. It's a start, though. I really appreciate that. Miguel, I'm going to ask you the question, then bring you back into it. What are the factors limiting the inclusion of Indigenous knowledge in government decisions, and I would say academic as well, on solutions to climate change induced migration?

Miguel Sioui: Well, I would give essentially the same answer, along the same lines as the previous question that you posed about some of the barriers.

[01:07:02 Miguel Sioui appears full screen.]

Miguel Sioui: Really, it relates to two fundamentally different perspectives and worldviews about the role of human beings, and our position in relation to the environment and environmental management, if you will.

So, I think that in order to spark change in this regard, positive change, it comes down to what Simon essentially was referring to, and that's really humility. Approaching things from a position of humility, especially as non-Indigenous allies and people interested in working with, and bridging those gaps, and overcoming those barriers is - when I speak about Canada or the Americas, because my expertise is in terms of Indigenous groups in the Americas, wherever you are in Canada, in the US, or Colombia, or Chile - there is an Indigenous people that have learned to develop a relationship with the surrounding environment in familial terms. You know, these people love the land that they come from. It inspires them, it nourishes them.

So, of course, over thousands of years, they've developed knowledge systems that are based on this love. Love for the land, care for the land. There's such profound and immense value in that way of thinking. And when you're approaching Indigenous groups for research, or for collaborative policy decisions, whether it's climate change or other environmental issues, I think that what's needed here is humility again. And recognizing that you're a guest on the land and you're the one that's seeking knowledge. You're the one that's seeking information from these millennia old knowledge systems that have such profound and tremendous value for the rest of humanity, really, not only for Indigenous peoples themselves.

So, that's the approach that I've used in my interactions with Indigenous groups all over the Americas, from the Yucatan to the Northwest Territories. Even though I'm an Indigenous person, I'm from a First Nation, I'm a guest on the land and I'm there to learn. And so, it places these people in a position of leadership. And that's what we mean by Indigenous-led research. That's the reality more and more for researchers, for policymakers, is just recognizing that special position of people. When you're interacting with a certain group, you're a guest on the land, and you're there to learn from them, so act accordingly, basically, is my advice.

[01:09:41 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: That's amazing, actually. That touches upon so many of the answers that I think people are giving. It's that face to face, the eye to eye, the taking into account the distinctions-based approach. The fact that we're Indigenous, but that doesn't mean we know everything about every Indigenous community out there. Every time we go, we travel, we are on other people's land, and we have to respect the protocols of those people.

This is a question for anyone, and anyone can answer, so whoever jumps in first wins the prize. What can you say about consultation processes with Indigenous communities for emergency management? What works? What could improve? And we can extend emergency management, I think, to other aspects of this discussion today about gathering data, about engaging on climate change. So, would anyone like to jump in on that? First and foremost, we don't want to bring in Robert.

Simon Lambert: Let me just say simply that you can't wait until the day of the emergency to have those relationships. So again, if we look at disaster risk reduction, the stuff before the event is fundamental. Readiness and reduction. And part of the readiness component is training and relationships and resourcing and so on. So, yes, you don't want to look out your window and see the flames and go, oh, who's the local Indigenous leader? Because that is too late.

Todd Kuiack: Right on. Amy, I'm sure you have a perspective on this, and Miguel, there is a question directly for you, so I'm going to ask Amy if she has anything to add on this. And again, emergency management, as we know, has four components. It's just not the response and recovery. It is that preparation, the mitigation. So, anything to add on that?

Amy Cardinal Christianson: Yes, well, I think for public servants, C is like, are we talking big C consultation?

Todd Kuiack: <laugh>

Amy Cardinal Christianson: You know, like the legal obligation?

Todd Kuiack: It's definitely - that's a little C.

Amy Cardinal Christianson: Okay, perfect. So, yes, with engagement, I would say the same as Simon, that it's really important to do that before the fact.

And another thing with government is, we also have a lot of turnovers of people, and that's very difficult for establishing those relationships and engaging. So, having someone there that can go to [a] community repeatedly so that they're seeing the same face, that's building up that trust, I think is so important. And we're not seeing that right now in many departments.

I just wanted to quickly comment on the ally-ship thing, too. So, for me, I work with a lot of great allies in fire who I absolutely love working with. And I would say the difference I noticed there is that they really know what they want to do to support Indigenous Nations. And it's not like, come and learn from everything our elders have to know when youth should be prioritized in that. Instead, what they're really focused on is looking at colonial institutions, systemic barriers, and really saying, what are we doing?

[01:12:46 Amy Cardinal Christianson appears full screen.]

Amy Cardinal Christianson: What do we have in place that with a colonization that we can remove and that I can use in my power, in my position or as an ally to do. So, yes, that's one thing that I would hope people would consider. It is cool to learn from elders, but lots of our youth and other people also need to be prioritized there.

[01:13:02 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: So much, so much to unpack. I really like that. Miguel, this question for you directly that our listener has asked. Can you talk more about oral storytelling as a way of passing down ecological knowledge? What are some examples of communities that do this well? And is there a way for allies to respectfully learn from these traditions in a respectful way?

Miguel Sioui: Right. That's a very, very interesting question. And I think in terms of oral knowledge, traditions,

[01:13:35 Miguel Sioui appears full screen.]

Miguel Sioui: and like Amy was saying just a few minutes earlier, I think it all comes down to funding these days. Really, I think that's the essential element here, is money. You can't expect Indigenous communities or groups that have been dealing with the legacies and impacts of colonization, colonialism for the last few centuries to - and nowadays, the new threat of climate change and environmental change that's going on at such a rapid rate, especially in the Canadian North, for instance, in the subarctic - to deal with all of these pressures and these historical legacies and impacts on their cultural knowledge systems, to be able to handle these changes that are coming and to, at the same time, pass down these oral traditions over time. It's becoming incredibly difficult for many Indigenous cultures from the Yucatan to the Northwest Territories. And with the additional pressure and reality that more and more young people are leaving their communities, whether it's to seek employment in cities and towns outside of the community or educational opportunities and then some of them never come back.

So, I think that's why I'm such a fan of Indigenous Guardian programs like the Dehcho Guardians, for instance, that I'm familiar with in Northwest Territories, having some kind of financial incentive for people to remain in their communities, to stay on the land. That's how you preserve these oral knowledge systems and traditions through time, is making it attractive - and just not even attractive, but possible - for young people to stay in their communities and to continue learning from elders and to ensure that these knowledge systems are passed down from generation to generation.

And on the topic of money, think about this: Indigenous peoples make up about 5% of the world's population, and we manage over 80%, somewhere around 85% of global biodiversity. If that's not just a figure that can wake up the entire planet, in terms of the critical role of Indigenous peoples in preserving global biodiversity and fighting global climate change, mitigating the impacts, I think that figure of 85% of global biodiversity managed by 5% of the world population, that's certainly an economic incentive as well on a global level, to allow Indigenous peoples to remain in their communities, to carry out their traditional land use practices over time, and to make sure that these oral knowledge traditions are passed down from generation to generation. It's just critically important, and I think that there's financial incentive as well as just a host of other reasons to allow Indigenous peoples - just get out of the way and then allow them to carry on their traditions as they've been doing for thousands of years.

[01:16:47 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Todd Kuiack: Thank you. So, a really high-level question on this. Do international instruments, [for] example, the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, UNDRIP, help to ensure that Indigenous knowledge is taken into account in the management of climate change, disasters and environment? I'm going to look to Simon, you're the science.

Simon Lambert: Well, we all are. We all are.

Todd Kuiack: Absolutely.

Simon Lambert: Indigenous people are scientists first and foremost. UNDRIP - and Canada, hats off - has made probably the biggest strides, I think, internationally. New Zealand has taken a step back at this stage.

[01:17:32 Simon Lambert appears full screen.]

Simon Lambert: We have a simpler treaty system here. We have one treaty. We have a treaty settlement process that both my tribes have gone through. You know, UNDRIP, I was in a Métis National Council global summit on the Sustainable Development Goals three weeks ago in Ottawa. Ex Minister of Justice, David Lametti, spoke on this role,

[01:18:00 Split screen: Todd Kuiack, Miguel Sioui, Amy Cardinal Christianson, and Simon Lambert.]

Simon Lambert: this changing interpretation role of UNDRIP. And said that what he saw was a transition from UNDRIP being a shield to protect Indigenous peoples, to its being a sword to enable First Nations, Métis, Inuit, specifically in Canada, to push forward and fight for more recognition of the inherent rights, treaty rights, Indigenous rights. And I thought that was an interesting turn of phrase.

So, legislation, and I have huge respect for lawyers. Yes, we seem to have a heck of a lot of lawyers on the planet, but it is the modern fight now. It's better to be fighting in the courts than literally in the fields, which all our peoples have done. So, we're in this new setting where these swords and shields, to extend the metaphor, come and go. And Indigenous peoples are very, very nimble, and agile in recognizing tools to help us. And it's almost a kind of like, just let us rip. Let us rip. We can - oh, there's the flag there.

Todd Kuiack: I think that's the two-minute warning.

Simon Lambert: Oh, I'll take it as that.

Todd Kuiack: <laugh> I think that is a great spot for us. Hopefully we didn't cut you off, Simon, but we are coming up to the end of our time, and I expect Robert any second now to be jumping in to thank all of our panelists. Amy, I wanted to come back to you. There was a few more questions, unfortunately, coming through, and I think that if anyone wants to get in touch with you, you do work for the Canadian Government, and I know that your information is online and that we can certainly reach out to you directly on some of the questions on, how do we bring everyone together, putting away the Indigenous, non-Indigenous schism? These are important questions that I think that you all can answer.

And we've gone a little bit over on our questions, but I'm very happy with the way that the session went today. I think you're, all three, excellent panelists, and we have learned quite a bit today. If anything, I think it's just allowed viewers and listeners today to start to think about where they're going to go next. Where's the next step? What else can they do? And there's certainly been some great messages. So, I'm looking to the folks here in the room, if Robert is coming on, to thank you?

Robert McLeman: And I am indeed. Yes.

[01:20:38 Split screen: Robert McLeman and Todd Kuiack.]

Robert McLeman: Todd, merci beaucoup tout le monde. Thank you, Todd. And thank you especially for being our moderator for today's panel event. You did a wonderful job. Thank you so much.

[01:20:49 Robert McLeman appears full screen. Text on screen: Robert McLeman; Professor, Wilfred Laurier University. / Robert McLeman; Professeur, Université Wilfred-Laurier.]

Robert McLeman: It's been a real privilege for me to be sort of a bystander to, not just today's panel session, but to four wonderful events that we've had as part of this series organized by the Canada School of Public Service on Climate Change and Human Migration.

Today's was the fourth event. And truly, I think it is unique in that there are very few instances, to my knowledge, where we have had and a panel of Indigenous experts speak to these very pressing issues in this sort of venue for public servants, not just in Canada, but anywhere else. And so, I genuinely thank all of you for participating.

For those of you who are joining us today, this is the fourth event. The first three are online, or will be available as recordings very soon, on the Canada School of Public Service YouTube channel.

[01:21:42 Overlaid text on screen: Browse the learning catalogue! It includes courses, events and other learning tools. Visit Canada.ca/School. / Consultez le catalogue d'apprentissage! Il vous propose des cours, des évènements et des outils d'apprentissage; Visitez Canada.ca/Ecole.]

Robert McLeman: So, just as a reminder for those who may not have participated in all of them, the first one was a global context look at climate change related displacements around the world. The second event was on displacements specific to Canada, above which we heard some examples today. And the third was on the challenges of the community of Tuktuyaaqtuuq, in the Northwest Territories, which is on the front lines of climate change and is, unfortunately, in the position of being one of the first communities in Canada to have to look directly in the face at relocating because of climate change. So, I encourage everybody, if you have the opportunity, to visit the Canada School of Public Service YouTube channel.

So again, merci beaucoup tout le monde. On behalf of myself and the School, this concludes today's event. I would like to thank Todd, Amy, Simon, and Miguel, as well as everybody who participated in watching and in providing us with questions for being part of today's discussion. Finally, again, thank you all for joining us. I hope you all have a wonderful day.

[01:22:46 The CSPS animated logo appears onscreen.]

[01:22:52 The Government of Canada wordmark appears, and fades to black.]