Transcript
Transcript: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series: Anil Arora
[00:00:11: Text appears on screen: "Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series with Anil Arora"]
[00:00:15: Text appears on screen: "Anil Arora joined the public service in 1988, initially joining Statistics Canada before assuming various roles. He retired as Chief Statistician on March 31st, 2024, after holding the position for nearly eight years. Throughout his tenure, he has led significant transformational initiatives, leveraging his experience and partnerships across all three levels of government, the private sector and international organizations."]
[00:00:42 Text appears on screen: "Where were you born?"]
Anil Arora: I was born in a little town called Dehradun in India, which is in the foothills of the Himalayas.
[00:00:57 Text appears on screen: "What is your first memory of Canada?"]
Cold, bitterly cold. We arrived in Edmonton on February the 26th, February the 26th. When you hear about snow, when you hear about, so you have this kind of romantic notion, and you just can't wear enough sweaters to overcome -40-something.
[00:01:28 Text appears on screen: "How would you describe your family's experience as immigrants in Canada?"]
We were really focused. I mean, like the story of so many immigrant families, like my dad sat us down and said, "We have goals, okay? In the first year, we have a goal to save $7,000 and we're going to buy this swampland out in Mill Woods, Edmonton, and that's going to be our home and that's going to be how we're going to establish ourselves in, the entry into middle class Canada." And so, really, the kind of the growing up years were really about establishing ourselves financially and just making sure that the family was going to be okay, and so, it wasn't a lot of… Now, having said that, it was still a wonderful childhood. I got a chance to play sports, I got a chance to work really hard and I got a chance to kind of connect with society. So, there's so many stories about overcoming that kind of natural fear of public speaking and interacting with people. When I was 14, just out of the blue, a producer that was starting a show in in Edmonton just randomly came up and said, "Would you like to be involved in this?" And literally a week later, I was hosting a show on TV live. Now, it wasn't prime time. It was a community channel, but boy, taking some risks and overcoming what I knew back then were going to be inhibitors to getting over things like public speaking, and shyness and so on. So, I've had this kind of habit of jumping into the deep end without anything.
[00:03:24 Text appears on screen: "Did you ever feel a sense of alienation growing up?"]
I grew up on the one hand wanting to preserve the richness of my heritage, and so I had the fortune of some amazing friends who were also immigrants, and came to Canada and spoke the language. In fact, I spoke Hindi and English when I came here, and I learned Punjabi from my friends after I came to Canada. But we played hockey together, hung out together. And then, there was a strong desire to fit in and be part of Canadian society. So, I had a friend of, like a whole group of Canadian friends, and I was really proud of the fact that I could kind of be part of both. And the intersection, I always thought this was my secret sauce that I could benefit from two cultures, and the benefit of the fact that I could speak another language and I could take the best of both and make that my advantage. And when I talk about diversity and inclusion, which has been a passion from day one, I kind of go back to those early days and go, this is an advantage for Canada. If everybody brought those perspectives, what a richer country we are and would be.
[00:04:57 Text appears on screen: "Where did you go to university?"]
So, my first degree I got from the University of Alberta. I think in Alberta, there's a rule or, which says, if you grew up in Alberta you have to do something in the oil and gas sector. So, my first degree was, tongue in cheek, of course, my first degree was in Petroleum Geology. So, I bucked the trend of the typical Indian parent that said you should go to med school, or you should be a lawyer or engineer. Well, I guess geologist, engineers are part of the same kind of group. But that, so that's what I did. My first degree was in Petroleum Geology. So, after I worked in the oil and gas sector for a while after graduating, in the mid eighties, the oil and gas sector was in deep trouble. The international price of oil had tanked and I'd done some work in the sector itself. And so, I went back and actually did Computing Science and Management. And then, a few years later here at the University of Ottawa, I did my graduate certificate in Public Sector Management and Governance.
[00:06:13 Text appears on screen: "Why did you move to Ottawa?"]
So, I'd been working after, as I said, I worked in the private sector for a bit after getting into the computing scene, I worked for EdTel, Edmonton Telephones for a little while, and then the City of Ottawa's computing resources, and that's what got me into Statistics Canada. And I worked, having started at Statistics Canada in 1988.
[00:06:41 Text appears on screen: "In 1988, he joined Statistics Canada, where he served in several positions, including in regional operations, corporate services and the redesign of the dissemination function."]
I worked, in the regional office, I worked on a number of, the first mainframes and computer-assisted interviewing, and I always had this kind of outlook of how can I use technology and innovation to make things better, make things better for the organization but also add greater value for Canadians? And it's really that kind of spirit that got the attention of the Chief Statistician here at the time. He'd come to visit us in Edmonton, and I think I did a presentation that he remembered. And so, in 1996, after I was looking after the census in the region, he invited me to apply on a competition. It was a, I think at that time, there was a differential between our size and ESes, and before the EC category had come in, and so, I had applied to, I think an EC5 or a 6-equivalent competition, and I won that competition and that brought me to Ottawa.
[00:07:51 Text appears on screen: "Was there anyone who played a role in advancing your career?"]
I've been so fortunate, I have to say, that I've had incredible bosses and leaders, and they weren't incredible because they were easy on me, okay? They were incredible because, one, they believed in me more than I believed in myself. And so, this establishes this kind of I will not let my boss down kind of, and then juxtaposed with that immigrant psyche that I talked about, that fear, I think the combination of the person that came in in the morning to turn the lights on and the one that at the end turned them off, so, in other words, good work ethic, but a leader that believes in you, and supports you, and gives you so much latitude and room that you wouldn't even give yourself, is really, I think, the biggest gift that I've had.
[00:08:51 Text appears on screen: "What does leadership mean to you?"]
It's something that is completely and always evolving as a concept. I mean, there will never be enough books written about leadership and there will never be enough people trying to define it. So, I'll kind of give you a lens of how I view leadership. And so, to me, leadership is all about the ability to take people towards a vision with a purpose, and in the process, they grow beyond their wildest expectations. To me, that's the ultimate kind of definition of leadership.
[00:09:48 Text appears on screen: "You became Chief Statistician during a somewhat challenging period. Could you elaborate on this?"]
I had, as I mentioned, I started my career in 1988 with this organization in a regional office, and then I came to Ottawa in '97 and worked my way up to the Assistant Chief Statistician before going off and doing a couple of policy jobs and regulatory jobs.
[00:10:12 Text appears on screen: "In 2000, he transitioned to the role of director at the Census Management Office within Statistics Canada."]
So, watching two successive Chief Statisticians resign in their own kind of context of principle and autonomy was really hard.
[00:10:21 Text appears on screen: "By 2004, he assumed the position of director general of the Census Program."]
[00:10:30 Text appears on screen: "In 2008, he stepped into the role of assistant chief statistician overseeing Social Institutions and Labour Statistics."]
It was hard to see even from a distance, because, remember, I spent 21 years before I left working on some of the most highest profile, innovative projects in this in this organization, which in some part I think led to an international recognition of this organization being not just among the world's best, but the world's best.
[00:10:41 Text appears on screen: "He then transitioned to Natural Resources Canada, assuming the role of assistant deputy minister for the Minerals and Metals Sector in 2010."]
[00:10:51 Text appears on screen: "In 2013, he then took the position of assistant deputy minister for Science and Policy Integration."]
[00:11:01 Text appears on screen: "In 2014, he served as the assistant deputy minister for the Health Products and Food Branch at Health Canada."]
So, when you see two successive leaders resign publicly, it does something to the psyche and the morale of the organization, and people know it, the change internally as well as externally.
[00:11:11 Text appears on screen: "And finally, in 2016, he was appointed Chief Statistician of Canada."]
And so, to come in, remember, you don't get a transition period when that happens. They usually resign in a moment and the next moment you're in. So, to get your head wrapped around what this organization was about, that deep history and richness, and then to replace that with your vision, to repair, in a sense, that real hurt that our organization goes through, and then reestablish that reputation and rapport with Canadians, as well as internationally. It's a daunting task. It was difficult. It was difficult to come in. I mean, easy in the sense that I knew the organization, I knew a lot of the people, but difficult in the sense of you kind of have to reestablish a lot of the fundamentals of the organization. As I said before, leadership is all about people, and people do get hurt, and how do you go about taking people who are hurt and inspire them to now move forward, is tricky business.
[00:12:23 Text appears on screen: "What actions have you taken to help them move forward?"]
One was to deliver on the 2016 census, which was on the heels of the 2011 census and the whole mandatory long-form issue that I think most Canadians are aware with, aware of. So, to deliver a successful 2016 census. The second one was to bring in legislation to make this agency more independent, and yet still relevant and even more relevant. And then the third one was to modernize the agency.
[00:13:11 Text appears on screen: "What significance does Statistics Canada have for Canada?"]
There was a reporter that I quote the odd time who said it best, and he said, I'll leave his name anonymous, but he said, "When Statistics Canada says, you can almost, the debate ends there and it's, now you take that as a given." So, to me, I think that's why we exist, is absolutely we should have vigorous debate, we should have shouting matches about where this country needs to go, but we shouldn't be arguing about the facts and we shouldn't be arguing about where things are. And that part comes from this agency. Now, we're talking about statistics, official statistics and where we sit. And so, this organization, which is rooted in the Constitution as the organization that is there to tell us all, Canadians, all of us, about what's going on, on the social, economic and the environmental fronts. To settle that debate about the what is why we exist.
[00:14:39 Text appears on screen: "Can you tell us about the day the pandemic began?"]
I remember that day. We, in fact, met in our main building in the, in our in our conference centre, where we brought in the senior management cadre, our director generals, a few directors, all the assistant chief statisticians and myself. And we had all, we had masks, we had all the sanitizers and we took all the distancing parameters that were available to us at the time, and it was a pivotal moment. We said, "In whatever way we can be helpful, we will take a leadership role." And I remember having the conversation with the team, and said, "When there's fog, when nobody knows what's going on and you're in that car driving, do you look at your instrumentation less or more? I think you look at it more. You want to know how much gas you have, you want to know how fast you're going, you want to check the blind spots, you want to make sure your windshield is absolutely crystal clear. That's what we do." And we made the decision at that point that we're actually going to do more. We're going to provide more data, richer data, more timely data, more meaning. And we went out and you know what? Every single organization that we talked to said, "We need more of your expertise, I want to partner with you." So, data have proven to be invaluable in how it is that we managed our way through, and it was not about us using the data, it's about how do we provide it to Canadians, and policymakers and businesses so that they could do a better job of overcoming the challenges of this pandemic era.
[00:16:40 Text appears on screen: "It appears that some public servants may not be as content or feel as heard as they once did. What are your thoughts on this?"]
First of all, I understand that sentiment, that public servants are in larger numbers now feel that it's tougher, that they're not listened to, or that value or the connection to the mission is not as strong as it was or it could be. We can't ignore the fact that we came through a very extraordinary period in the pandemic, but I would say some of those feelings were there even before the pandemic, and the pandemic just exacerbated a lot of those sentiments that are there. And I'm fortunate enough to have a really rich network of private sector CEOs that I get a chance to meet with on a very frequent basis as well, and I have to say that that's not just unique to the public service. Now, we could talk about the degree and the intensity, but it's a general problem, a challenge for leaders to contend with. As I mentioned, my simple definition of leadership, if you've got a really enthusiastic and willing, off they go, you don't have to apply that much grease, if you like. But when there is real pain, when there is real, a sense of disconnection, it becomes very difficult. It becomes difficult for employees who don't see their voice being heard, they don't see their concerns being addressed, they don't see leaders in the bureaucracy removing obstacles, they see the exact opposite. So, I think we have to rethink this, the language, command and control, chain of command. We have to rethink hierarchies, we have to rethink this kind of power differential.
Today's leadership is how do you lead with amazing listening, with empathy, the sense of being a servant to your leadership team and really understanding the system within which they work, and to actually lead, and inspire them and trust them. And that is not sort of where leadership was 30, 40 years ago or even 20 years ago, where it was about I know as a leader what's best and so I'm just going to build in systems in place for you to just carry that. I think the tension for change is now at such where people have said, "No, I'm not just going to blindly take that." And I think it's going to take a leap of faith as well for us to be able to reestablish that connection, that trust. Now, I think some organizations, including this one, are taking that very, very seriously and rebuilding that culture. Now, we have to also, like, there's some challenges here, right? There's a whole hybrid kind of work space and there's some exceptions to that, and so we have to work around some of these things and maybe even step back a bit and say, "Look, are they conducive to that kind of outcome that we want?" And remember, we have to reconnect. I would say the last thing is that we have to reconnect with why we exist. We're not here to serve ourselves. We're here to serve the public. That's what a public servant is all about, regardless of what level you are. The higher you are, the more of a service delivery agent you are. So, I think we have to go back to fundamental principles of why we exist, we have to rethink that relationship and the power structure, and I think we have to go towards a new way of operating, which is a much higher degree of trust, and systems and hierarchy that are actually there to propagate it, not the opposite. We have to become servants and remove obstacles through hierarchies that have been built at every level, instead of thickening and frustrating people. So, a lot of work to be done, but I think the payoff is incredible. I think we're on that right road.
[00:21:19 Text appears on screen: "Have you developed any tools as Chief Statistician that have since become indispensable?"]
Yeah. Interestingly, when I, I think I mentioned earlier when I became the Chief Statistician here in 2016, one of the three objectives was to modernize this agency.
[00:21:39 Text appears on screen: "Anil was appointed chief statistician of Canada in September 2016 until his retirement on March 31st, 2024."]
And modernizing the agency meant that we were going to explore new ways and innovate how it is that we create official statistics. And so, two examples. One is crowdsourcing. So, crowdsourcing is essentially putting a platform up and allowing the population to self-select whether they want to be part and give their data or not. It's not a representative sample, but yet it's an important tool. And then we figured out, okay, how can we, after we have the information, fit it into a more robust survey frame? I remember the first time we did the crowdsourcing, we were wondering, is anybody ever going to respond? Well, in a week we had tens of thousands. Within three weeks, we had half a million people who had responded. So, we knew we were on to something. So, that's one. Pre-pandemic, we'd also done wastewater sampling. So, we were on the cannabis before it was decriminalized, we wanted to get a sense of what is the illicit market. And so, we were actually looking at sampling wastewater to get a sense of what was the underlying consumption, because there's no way to get at that market in an easy way and in a safe way. Once things were regulated and they were put in, we could get those volumes. But the difference between when you have to go and the legal market, it tells you what is the predominance of the illegal market. And we've been tracking that. And now, all of a sudden that same tool is available for opioids and so many other, and so we were one of the, I would say, one of the pioneers. We worked in collaboration with many other partners. But this is what this agency does and has done for so many decades, is this innovative spirit, that can do, and we need to solve a problem and how can we come at it in ways that are nontraditional?
[00:23:59 Text appears on screen: "What does it mean to be Chief Statistician of Canada?"]
One is connect to the rich heritage reputation, the cachet or swagger, if you want, that this organization has built over a hundred plus years. I have been fortunate to have been associated with this organization, most of it internally, but some externally, as well as a consumer for more than 35 years, so a third of that kind of history, and it's been an amazing ride. What we have built as a world leading organization where people look to this organization when the statistical community in the world is confronting, "Okay, well, how do we integrate environment into our economics and our social fabrics? How does social inclusion and cohesion look like?" And I could go on and on and on. They come to this organization, and want this organization to be leading and developing those concepts, those frameworks and then the data that underlie it, and to make sure it connects with real needs. It's not just providing data and walking away, it's actually building capacity. It's providing a data service to Canadians. Know that it is an institution that is beyond just the federal government. Mayors of cities depend upon the outputs of this institution just as much as a Cabinet Minister. Businesses and chambers rely on it, academics rely on it, not-for-profits rely on it. So, know the gravity of what we do and why it matters, and work tirelessly towards that objective.
The second thing I would say is complacency should never set in. You start believing the clippings, as they say, you start and that is a sure-fire sign of moving towards irrelevance. This institution has established that place in society because it took risks, intelligent risks. It took the depth of expertise and innovation, that curiosity, to actually move things forward. And so, I would say even if we're getting into a period of austerity, that innovation is absolutely critical. In fact, it is integral to solving some of the problems of how do we get more with less. And so, innovation shouldn't be a casualty, it should be an enabling feature. And clearly, innovation is about people and ideas. And so, I would say innovation is something that has got us here and it's going to be key to moving forward. And the last thing I would say is never forget that we exist because Canadians trust us. So know that that trust is hard earned and easily lost. And so, the transparency within which we operate, when we make a mistake, we should be the first ones to stand up, and we made a mistake, and we fix it and we are upfront about it. And so, that culture that is driven through strong values and ethics, that transparency within which we work, and the trust that Canadians and businesses have in us, without it, it doesn't exist. And so, never take it for granted and work hard towards strengthening it in this muddled, complicated and ever-expanding data ecosystem each and every day.
[00:28:04 Text appears on screen: "What advice would you give to a junior public servant just starting out their career?"]
I think, like so many of us, we didn't start as leaders in the positions that we're in, or leaving the public service in these positions. We all started, I started right at the bottom. And so, we relied on the advice of leaders and so many. And the generosity with which my bosses, leaders, mentors, informal was just tremendous. And so, there are a few messages that I, I kind of share with, with people who are willing to listen. One is be curious, because curiosity opens up so many doors, and you see a very different product, very different advice from somebody who took that curiosity and embedded it in the product itself. It's more pragmatic, it provides far greater context, and it's, I think, more usable because now you, the reader or the person who's receiving that, also get what was in the mind of the person that was creating it, rather than just a, some analysis was done and there were the... So, to me, the number one thing is hone your curiosity as part of the hard skills that you're getting along with it. Two is work ethic. There is something to be said for actually having delivered, done, actually made a difference. So, I think we do undervalue that aspect.
And so, I give the advice. Could somebody stand up for you and say, "This person did this and that was not something that was there prior to that person?" So, do you have that sense of accountability where you take pride? Yes, you could be part of a team, but what did you deliver? What was your narrative? And will others be able to speak for your narrative as somebody who actually delivered something of value? So, that's the second piece of advice. So, don't just be a talker, don't just be part of the furniture or whatever it is, establish that and actually deliver something concrete that you can be proud of and others will actually recognize. And I would say, the public service is such a, an amazing institution, with so many people and so much expertise, and the, so the third piece I give them is grow your network. Because in a knowledge-based society and public service, knowing who to talk to to get the answer is at times even more critical than knowing the answer or taking an inordinate amount of time to get at the answer. So, curiosity, owning and networking. Those three things to me are really, really critical.
[00:31:27 Text appears on screen: "Is there anything else you'd like to tell us?"]
First, I would say that as an immigrant that came to this country when I was 11, it's a quid pro quo relationship. We need to give back more to this country than we take, because if not, if we take more than we give, we weaken the system, and we weaken the country and we weaken it for future generations. And so, that deep connection to wanting to improve the systems, the future of this country, whether it's health care, you name the policy, the environment, whether it's equality, you have to give, not just take. And in fact, the more you give the more it's able to give back. And so, I would say it is a privilege, it's not a right to be Canadian, and that establishes this pact that we will give this country our best. I'll give it the best, always, we'll always be honest, we'll always be transparent. We may make mistakes. That's okay. We will fail at certain things, and that's okay. We will learn, we'll dust up, we'll get up, but we will always be in the service of Canada and Canadians.
[00:33:13 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]
[00:33:19 The Government of Canada logo appears onscreen.]
