Transcript
Transcript: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series: Cassie Doyle
[00:00:00 Video opens with a montage of views of the CSPS building, the Deputy Minister's Office, and the crew setting up their equipment for the interview. Cassie Doyle takes a seat in an historic room. Text on screen: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections, with Cassie Doyle. Inspiring music plays while the questions are being asked.]
[00:00:21 Overlaid text on screen: Cassie Doyle has had a distinguished career in Canadian government, serving as Deputy Minister of Natural Resources and Associate Deputy Minister of Environment Canada. She also held significant roles within the British Columbia Government.]
[00:00:31 Overlaid text on screen: Currently, she plays a pivotal role in governance as Chair of BC Housing and the Canada Energy Regulator. In addition, she serves as the director of the Institute of Research in Public Policy and the Fraser Basin Council.]
[00:00:45 Cassie Doyle appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Where were you born?]
Cassie Doyle: I was born in Vancouver.
[00:00:52 Overlaid text on screen: What did you want to be when you grew up?]
Cassie Doyle: No, I originally wanted to be a nun. I was raised in a catholic school, so I think maybe that. And then, to be a social worker, I think, yes.
[00:01:09 Overlaid text on screen: What was your perception of Canada growing up?]
Cassie Doyle: Canada was huge to me. You know, I was in elementary school when we got the new flag. And so that seemed to me to be sort of like a branding. And I did feel a high level of attachment to the country of Canada, growing up, even though I was a westerner. There was like a strong feeling of that.
I remember coming out to Ottawa when I was in high school, and all the symbols were important. And I remember being very impressed, actually through my entire career, with the Peace Tower. I think it was around the service that it represented and also that it represented peace. And it's still something I think we should be valuing as Canadians. So, that was an important symbol.
[00:02:03 Overlaid text on screen: Where did you go to university?]
Cassie Doyle: I went to the University of Victoria,
[00:02:10 Exterior image of the University of Victoria; Graduation photo of Cassie Doyle.]
Cassie Doyle: and I studied sociology, with a minor in political science, so I did kind of that humanities side. It was a great, great time to be at university.
[00:02:21 Cassie Doyle appears full screen.]
Cassie Doyle: And I went from there to do some international [work]. I went on Canadian Cross. I did a couple of international tours. And then I came back, and I went to Carleton University.
[00:02:32 Exterior image of Carleton University.]
Cassie Doyle: And I did my – it's very unusual, I think, for a Deputy Minister – I did my master's social work in policy and administration.
[00:02:38 Cassie Doyle appears full screen.]
Cassie Doyle: So, I went into more of a social stream. But a lot of the professors at that time in that graduate school were from – like, my major piece of work and my thesis was on the Canada Health Act. And there were people that had come who had been ADMs and had had deep experience in the government, in the federal government, and particularly in social policy, so I seemed to be very fortuitous in that respect.
But I started after university because that was a program where you did professional placement. I did my placement with the City of Ottawa, which at the time, I was kind of drawn to local issues, and I worked on issues around housing and homelessness in the planning department, and then at the City of Ottawa Nonprofit Housing Corporation. I stayed working there. I ended up getting a job out of there and worked for the City of Ottawa.
[00:03:33 Overlaid text on screen: Ms. Doyle started her career in 1982 with the City of Ottawa, working in housing and development.]
Cassie Doyle: So, I worked for municipal government. Then I went from there to the province of British Columbia.
[00:03:40 Overlaid text on screen: She then moved to British Columbia and became the Associate Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs in 1992.]
Cassie Doyle: I spent about a decade with BC, and I was a Deputy Minister there. Then I went from BC to the federal government, and came in as an ADM and then became, fairly quickly, an associate.
[00:03:53 Overlaid text on screen: How did you become an assistant deputy minister?]
Cassie Doyle: I knew through the federal provincial tables that I was part of, I got to know certain Deputy Ministers.
[00:04:08 Overlaid text on screen: Alan Nymark devoted 34 years to the Public Service, serving as Deputy Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, and Environment Canada, as well as Associate Deputy Minister of Health.]
Cassie Doyle: Alan Nymark was one of them, the late, great Alan Nymark. So, I was able to use my connections. Wayne Wouters was another person I had met around DFO issues.
[00:04:20 Overlaid text on screen: Honourable Wayne G. Wouters, OC, PC, had a distinguished 37-year career in the federal public service, during which he served as the Clerk of the Privy Council, Secretary to the Cabinet, and Head of the Public Service.]
Cassie Doyle: He was, I think, deputy of DFO at the time, so I was able to use some of those connections.
At the time there was a fairly outward looking recruitment for ADMs. I know a lot of people said, oh, you shouldn't go in as an ADM, but I did. And basically, on Alan's advice, come in as his ADM in Environment Canada. And then, as I said, it was fairly short. And he convinced me – and I think it actually was very good advice – that [if] you come in as an ADM, you really get to understand more the sort of machinery, I guess, and how government works here: how the centre works; how Treasury Board works. It's very hard to kind of land starting. I can't imagine coming in as a Deputy Minister, actually.
[00:05:06 Overlaid text on screen: What was your experience like when you first entered the public service?]
Cassie Doyle: Well, when I first came in, I was sort of in awe of the complexity, particularly the role of the central agencies.
[00:05:22 Overlaid image on screen: Cassie Doyle and Stéphane Dion. Text on screen: Cassie Doyle and the former Minister of the Environment, Stéphane Dion.]
Cassie Doyle: I was at Environment Canada. As it always is, it had a big, big agenda and I was doing corporate services. So, my best teachers were my Director Generals. They were happy to teach me everything that they knew about the federal government, and I was happy to spend time with them and learn. So, that was a really great entry point, and I had fantastic team there, a very motivated team, a high performing team. So, that was fantastic.
And the other thing, I received some excellent advice when I came in and that was, don't draw attention to the fact that you're new here. You might have been working in a region, don't think that everybody knows each other, but don't say, oh, I used to work for the Province of BC, just don't say it.
And it was also part of the culture that even if you are lifting lessons – and I did at times from my provincial experience – never, never make the comparison. It also, I think, spoke to the sense that you don't want to give any sense that you're an outsider, you want to be an insider. And it was excellent advice. I followed it to a "T".
[00:06:36 Overlaid text on screen: How did you become and associate deputy minister?]
Cassie Doyle: In my case, the Deputy Ministers changed. Alan left and we had a new Deputy Minister, Suzanne Hurtubise, and I became a key advisor to her because there was a lot of issues that I had line of sight to from where I was in the corporate side. So, I think I was fortunate to have the Deputy's ear, and to be able to represent the department on some bigger files. And that's how I got to know, then, the Clerk at the time. And then I was actually quite surprised because it came fairly soon that I was called to become the Associate.
[00:07:27 Overlaid text on screen: How did you become a deputy minister?]
Cassie Doyle: I went to Natural Resources Canada.
[00:07:27 Overlaid image of a press release:
Prime Minister Announces Changes in the Senior Ranks of the Public Service
News Release
16 June 2006
Ottawa, Ontario
Prime Minister Stephen Harper was pleased to announce today the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service.
Janice Charette, currently Deputy Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, becomes Deputy Minister of Human Resources and Social Development, effective July 1, 2006.
Richard Fadden, currently Deputy Minister of Natural Resources, becomes Deputy Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, effective July 1, 2006.
Catherine (Cassie) Doyle, currently Associate Deputy Minister of the Environment, becomes Deputy Minister of Natural Resources, effective July 10, 2006.
Carole Swan, currently Associate Deputy Minister announcing changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service. Ms. Doyle is listed as: currently Associate Deputy Minister of the Environment, becomes Deputy Minister of Natural Resources, effective July 10, 2006.
Carole Swan, currently Associate Deputy Minister of Industry, becomes Senior Associate Deputy Minister of Industry, effective immediately.
The Prime Minister took the opportunity to thank Alan Nymark for his 34 years of service with the Public Service and wishes him a rewarding retirement.
Biogrraphical notes follow.
Additional overlaid text reads: Cassie Doyle was Associate Deputy Minister of Environment Canada from 2003 to 2006.]
Cassie Doyle: I had had a good run at Environment Canada, so I was familiar with a lot of the policy work that was on the agenda in that area.
[00:07:35 Overlaid text on screen: Then, she became Deputy Minister of Natural Resources Canada in 2006 and served until 2010.]
Cassie Doyle: But stepping into the role, it was a big jump. I had some background, of course, as a Deputy Minister, so I understood the role.
I sort of inherited, I would say, a fairly fractured department, quite frankly. I mean, it was a highly competitive team around the table. And, if I could be so frank, all men. And I had to assert authority fairly early on. I think, maybe within the first two weeks, I put an ADM on leave with pay. I sent him home for insubordination at the executive table.
[00:08:32 Overlaid text on screen: What is your perspective on the relationship between Natural Resources Canada and Environment Canada, considering their historical lack of cohesion?]
Cassie Doyle: I was placed at NRCan with the express mission of creating more cooperation between the two departments, and at the same time, I was probably seen as coming in from [the] enemy camp, from Environment Canada. And that made it more challenging to take control of the executive table, which I think you really have to do as a Deputy.
And so, it meant a whole change of the way that we were operating at NRCan as, I thought, there were people in leadership positions who felt our job was to defend the oil and gas sector. You know, a little bit of stakeholder capture, I would say. There was also lots of brilliant people there.
I did something at NRCan to change the conversation of creating a North Star table to re-envision who we were as a department. It was a heavily siloed department with some great old institutions in their own right, like the Geological Survey of Canada and the Forest Service. They saw themselves as almost kind of like franchises of the department.
So, I shook things up, I think a lot, at NRCan. And that was the only way I could change the conversation and the culture, and also draw out the expertise that was in the department and the really innovative thinkers in the department. And I think it actually started – you know, I'm modest in terms of the impact it had – but it did actually create a new way of thinking and talking about natural resources. As opposed to seeing it in opposition to Environment Canada, seeing that the only way forward was to collaborate and to bring our expertise to the table around climate change.
[00:10:46 Overlaid text on screen: What key factors should be considered when assuming a leadership position in an organization?]
Cassie Doyle: One thing I think that's important is to ensure that your team knows who you are, and how you lead. And so, I think that even on the very first day, and this is what I would do, and the first time I would convene a table is to not only introduce myself a bit, biographical information, but also to say, this is how I like to lead organizations.
I learned that along the way that it's better to come out early and say, for instance, I want you to collaborate. It's a fairly simple thing, but I won't tolerate you competing with each other or withholding information. So, I had a list of things that I really believed in and that gave them a no surprise environment around, this is how we're going to work together. This is how I want to lead, and this is how I expect you to lead.
And then a really strong emphasis on values. So, in a certain way, I think that I try to set a tone, and in setting that tone to make it clear that I'm assuming a new leadership of this team, and this is how I want to do it.
[00:12:12 Overlaid text on screen: Do you approach each job the same way or do you adapt your approach based on the requirements of the role?]
Cassie Doyle: I probably bring a core approach to every job that I've sort of honed or developed. I haven't ever met a team that couldn't be improved, or that couldn't improve, in terms of its functioning. And I believe that there are some chronic issues within all public service, and part of it is, for instance, in silos. And I was really very strong, I still am, on collaboration, and I think it's an essential way of moving forward in terms of a modern public service.
So, yes, I have taken over teams that I thought had been allowed, I think, to develop in a way that there were some unhealthy tendencies, let's just put it that way.
[00:13:18 Overlaid text on screen: What is your take on the generalist vs. specialist debate?]
Cassie Doyle: I actually believe that it's a little bit of both. You really have to learn where you're working.
So, it's a funny thing, I started working in housing well before it became such an enormous national issue, but I started working in housing with City of Ottawa. I went to British Columbia, and I was the ADM in municipal affairs responsible for housing,
[00:13:48 Overlaid text on screen: In 1993, Ms. Doyle was appointed Deputy Minister of Housing in British Columbia.]
Cassie Doyle: then became the Deputy Minister of Housing, amongst other responsibilities. So, when I was first moved into a generalist role, into Environment,
[00:13:55 Overlaid text on screen: Ms. Doyle was appointed Deputy Minister of Environment in British Columbia in 1996.]
Cassie Doyle: I was stunned that, well, I don't work on the dirt side of government. I had no background in that. It was interesting because at the time, the issues were really fraught from a stakeholder perspective. So, one of the reasons that I was moved was because I was seen as somebody who could work with stakeholders and to sit around a table and work particularly with First Nations at the time. So, I could see that actually allowed me to see that I had skills that were highly transferable.
And then I did, for the rest of my career, really work more on the environment, natural resources, that side of government. And so, that's why I say the combination. I've seen some brilliant people, leaders who were deep subject matter experts, and they're brilliant if they were able to elevate their thinking beyond that subject matter expertise, to see the strategic. To see that, to have a vision.
So, I think it's kind of a combination. I would just say that in the time I was in government, I was always trying to promote individuals with a science background because there were so few of them at the upper echelons of the public service, and I thought we needed that around the table.
[00:15:14 Overlaid text on screen: How do you effectively handle interactions with a minister?]
Cassie Doyle: That is where my old political science training really served me well, was understanding the role of ministers and the ministerial accountability as part of the democratic system, which oftentimes gets missed.
I learned a lot about working with ministers in the provincial government, and it was a little more rough-and-tumble then, with less padding around the ministers, they were much more accessible. And one of the things that I think is really important is establishing the relationship. That it's not to manage them, but to get to know them, and particularly to get to know what they are trying to achieve.
I was just giving advice to a new minister in the provincial government, and I was saying, the clearer you can be on what really is going to be important for you, the clearer your whole ministry will be, and you'll deliver more. So, I was always trying to tease that out of ministers in my connections.
I loved working with ministers. I respect them enormously. I respect politicians, and I remember a minister saying to me at a briefing to an ADM who was maybe going overboard in terms of his advice. He stopped and said, hey, have you ever run for anything? And it was an interesting question, because you realize how protected public servants are, at least up until recently. How they are protected from the limelight.
When I worked for the provincial government, we would often finish our briefings just before question period, so that's what I mean about a little more rough-and-tumble. The minister would just walk out that door and there would be a scrum. I was the Deputy Minister of Environment in BC at a time when there was just a huge battle over forestry. So, you would sort of see [it].
So, I respected ministers. I think that it's a key relationship. When it's working well, you can do anything. When it's not working well, it's really hard to overcome that, I'd say.
[00:17:35 Overlaid text on screen: What does leadership mean to you?]
Cassie Doyle: I've always seen myself as a leader within a context. So, I feel like I really believe in myself as a leader that, in connecting with others, that that's an important part of leadership.
I, perhaps, grew up in a time when there was a sort of rejection of the great man, you know, a kind of model of leadership, it was more participatory. So, leadership, for me, means being able to actually have the art of being able to get things done through other people. And that's why you need the connection. So, that was a big emphasis of mine, as a leader, is just how I'm connecting.
[00:18:29 Overlaid text on screen: Did your perception of being a public servant change from the start to the end of your career?]
Cassie Doyle: Having started as a public servant in local government, there was an immediacy to that, that really was different. I felt when I worked for the City of Ottawa –
[00:18:29 Overlaid aerial image of downtown Ottawa.]
Cassie Doyle: you'd be amused at this because you live in Ottawa – I knew every intersection. I got to know the city so completely, because I was often on the firing line as well. When you're an executive at a city, you have to respond, and oftentimes with the camera rolling. And so, that immediacy was really different. And the sense of making decisions that would affect people at the community level.
And then as I went – I'll just tell you something funny – when I first went to the provincial government and the first time I was waiting outside a cabinet, it all of sudden dawned on me how easy this is. There's no media. No one knows even what we're bringing in. Like the paper, the secrecy, the cabinet secrecy. All of a sudden, just like a light went on, I was like, this is a piece of cake. A piece of cake in terms of not having to deal with all the dynamics because there was so much more transparency at that time, because everything that was on a council agenda had been distributed a few days ahead, so everyone knew what was going up. And your work was so much more transparent.
So, [in] my public service career I had a unique opportunity to go from the very immediate level to being in the federal government, where there was so much work that we did at cabinet committees that never saw the light of day.
[00:20:19 Overlaid text on screen: Could you share the key lessons you learned from the toughest moment you experienced in your public service career?]
Cassie Doyle: I remember having to manage a huge crisis. It was when the Chalk River nuclear reactor was shut down by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission. So, it was like the absolute biggest crisis I'd ever managed, where we were doing almost 24/7. And it's the first time that I've ever been exposed [to] – within about 24 hours, a committee of the whole of parliament was convened, and that was the only time I sat in parliament with Morris Rosenberg. He was the Deputy of Health, and I was Deputy of NRCan. We were sitting on the floor, and it was, wow, it was the highest wire act I've ever been involved in.
[00:21:12 Overlaid text on screen: What did you learn from this crisis?]
Cassie Doyle: We had too small a group to manage the size of the issue, and I should have recruited and brought more people in. One of my key subject matter ADMs, at the time, had a terrible response to that health and health issue. So, it was just out.
So, at the time, we should have had a way – and I think it's very relevant, given the kind of emergencies we're facing – to bring more resources in. We had this whole department, and I think we were running on too small a team, just given the demands.
[00:22:02 Overlaid text on screen: What advice would you give to a junior public servant just starting out their career?]
Cassie Doyle: One thing I'd tell them is, there's no more important work you can be doing and no more fulfilling work you could be doing. And the really important thing to cultivate is your own curiosity. That there's so much to learn, horizontally and also just from a depth perspective, that I would encourage them to learn as much as they can. And to value the contribution they're making.
It can seem, sometimes, fairly weak I would say, only I remember speaking to young public servants who told me that they spent all their days writing briefing notes. So, I said, okay, you think of it as writing briefing notes, but you should be thinking as you're providing advice to the minister. That you are part of the democratic process. And I also really don't believe we should be leaving people writing briefing notes for too long. They should get exposed.
But also, that you should follow your work, see where it goes, and try to cultivate your own sense of just the possibilities of public policy. So, I recommend to all young people that they should work within the public service. I had an extremely rewarding career, but I think a lot of it is because I was always curious. And so, I guess, the curiosity and then the respect for the institution, and that's never more important than right now.
[00:23:47 Overlaid text on screen: Is there anything else you'd like to tell us?]
Cassie Doyle: I really want to talk about collective leadership. This is something that I think is so important which is that, as a Deputy Minister, it's not who you are as a leader, it's how your team leads together. And I found that some of the best investments I made as a Deputy was in convening my executive team. And sometimes with the help of outside counsel to try to understand how we work together and to really aim to be exemplary together, because I think that everyone is looking at the team, so if two ADMs are not talking to each other, their staff will never work together. And the kind of issues that we're facing right now are so complex that it really does require a collaborative approach.
So, I guess that's one of my more important learnings was, it doesn't matter how good a leader you are, if the people who are part of your team are not consistent in the way they're demonstrating leadership – and it started at Environment Canada, where we created a charter for the executive team. But that was kind of a learning that I went on and I've used a number of times since then, which is that how we lead, it really is collective. We're an organism, if you will, and it doesn't matter what individual does. I guess I would recommend that as something that deputies invest their time in thinking about.
[00:25:27 Video closes with the crew packing up their equipment from the interview.]
[00:25:34 The CSPS animated logo appears onscreen. Text on screen: canada.ca/school.]
[00:25:41 The Government of Canada wordmark appears, and fades to black.]
