Transcript
Transcript: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series: Walter Natynczyk
[00:00:03 The Deputy Minister/President's Office is shown.]
[00:00:11 Text appears onscreen that reads "Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections with Walter Natynczyk".]
[00:00:14 Walter Natynczyk sits down in a chair.]
[00:00:21 Text appears onscreen that reads "Walter Natynczyk joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1975 and rose to become Chief of Defence Staff from 2008 to 2012, leading Canadian forces in major operations in Afghanistan, Haiti, and Bosnia. In 2014, he was appointed Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada, a role he held until his retirement in 2021, where he focused on supporting veterans and overseeing programs to ensure their well being."]
[00:00:44 Text appears onscreen that reads "Where were you born?"]
Walter Natynczyk: In Winnipeg, yeah, born and raised in Winnipeg.
[00:00:52 A photo of a Winnipeg neighbourhood is shown. "Credit: Copyright Paul Clerkin, CC BY 2.0, via flickr"]
I went to elementary, junior high, high school right there, played football, flipped hamburgers, delivered newspapers, all of that, and at the age of 17, joined the Canadian Armed Forces.
[00:01:06 Text appears onscreen that reads "How was your childhood?"]
You see, I was lucky in the sense that I had a really supportive family.
[00:01:12 A photo of Walter Natynczyk's family is shown, including his mother, father and two sisters.]
My father passed away when I was nine years old.
[00:01:17 A photo of Walter Natynczyk's dad is shown.]
And so, my uncle and aunt loved camping, fishing, and that kind of thing. So, right from about the age of eight or nine years old, I would not spend a lot of time on the prairie but rather drive east across the border into Ontario and go fishing, camping, tenting around Kenora, Lake of the Woods, like almost every weekend. I mean, we had so much freedom and flexibility to do things and there was all kinds of opportunity. And so, I was, as I mentioned, delivering newspapers from the age of ten, playing football in high school, lied about my age and I started flipping hamburgers at 15. At the age of 16, I became an assistant manager at the restaurant all the while going to Air Cadets, which was really my introduction to the Canadian Armed Forces, was through cadets, the cadet program, did a number of summer courses with them. But in that whole backdrop of Winnipeg, that just provided so much opportunity to me, great high school. Daniel McIntyre High School, and from there, prepared me to go to military college.
[00:02:26 Text appears onscreen that reads "What initially drew you towards joining the military?"]
Before my father passed away, I was in Cub Scouts, and then I went into Boy Scouts and that was interesting, but I always wanted to be a pilot, and I was… especially after my father passed away, and before he did, I heard all of the war stories. My father was really a Polish combatant. He had survived the gulags of Siberia and lost a lot of his family in that situation, joined the Free Polish Army. And so, in our household, while he was alive, all of his battle buddies would come over to the house and just reminisce and support each other. So, that kind of created an interest in me for the Air Force and flying. So, I thought, I want to be a pilot, and one of my buddies was going down to this air cadet thing so I thought I'd give it a go. I was 13, just turned 13. And so, I signed up and I loved it, and again, in addition to delivering newspapers, playing football in high school, like I was a pretty busy kid, and I found that each of these were building blocks and it assisted me in creating the kind of wild character I am, but I liked the structure, liked the discipline, liked the high standards of Air Cadets. I found out later on that I could not be a pilot. I had a little bit of a colour vision issue that prevented me from pursuing a career as a pilot but I kind of liked the drill, the leadership, the opportunity to stand in front of folks and say, hey, let's do this, and I really liked teaching. And so, I thought I might just continue to pursue that.
[00:04:15 Text appears onscreen that reads "At what point did you start seeing the military as a long-term career?"]
Really, it was a decision about trying to attend university from a perspective of a family environment where we didn't have a lot of money, and when my father passed away, we were on social welfare and it was different rules in those days. You couldn't have a car. You had a limit in your bank account. There was a lot of limits. And so, one of the reasons I did all of this work, delivering papers, flipping burgers, was actually to bring money into the household, and the first car we had was the car I bought as a 16 year-old. I bought it for $100 (laughs). So, going to the military and military college was actually kind of like a scholarship and it allowed me to afford an education. And so, that was the start.
[00:05:15 Text appears onscreen that reads "Where did you go to university?"]
So, I attended Royal Roads Military College in Victoria, British Columbia for two years.
[00:05:20 A photo of Royal Roads Military College is shown. "Credit: Copyright Victoriaedwards, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons"]
And again, coming out of Manitoba where there isn't a grade 13 like there is here in Ontario, I was ill-equipped for university in British Columbia. I lacked calculus and some of the other subjects within, say, chemistry and physics. So, when I arrived out in British Columbia, mindful that I had great marks coming out of Winnipeg, I immediately got drafted into the rugby team, varsity tug of war team, which took up all my time. So, I lacked an educational background. I was playing sports basically full-time and there was a little bit of social activity. I had signed up to ballroom dancing which I thought was very important in order to meet some of the locals. So, by Christmas, I bombed academically. I bombed in all of those key subjects for which being an engineer are kind of important. And so, I was on release from the Canadian Armed Forces and I had a number of great supporters, the principal of Royal Roads, Dr. John Graham. He thought I could still succeed, and my military leader, a squadron commander named Dennis O'Brien, he thought I could succeed, partly because I was a good rugby player (laughs). So, after a number of weeks on release procedure but playing rugby all the while, they said, 'hey, what about trying arts and what about going to the army as a tanker?' And I said, 'sure, I'll give it a go', and it all kind of worked out. But really, after the difficulty in first year, I really started to thrive in the military college environment, and the way the system was set up, this is back in 1975 to '79 when I attended university, I completed two years at Royal Roads in Victoria, British Columbia.
[00:07:26 Text appears onscreen that reads "He attended Royal Roads Military College and Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, graduating in 1979 with a degree in Business Administration"]
[00:07:31 A photo of Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean is shown. "Credit: Copyright Victoriaedwards, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons"]
And after which, I attended Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean because they provided a program in business administration.
[00:07:35 A photo of Walter Natynczyk from college is shown.]
And I was, again, interested in human resources, management, leadership. But moreover than that, they had a really good football team and I wanted to leave rugby behind me and go play football, which I did, all the while during the summer months, I did my basic officer training and then did the training to be an armour officer, basically a commander of tanks.
[00:08:06 Text appears onscreen that reads "Do you think Canadians still see the military as a path to education and career growth, given today's recruitment challenges?"]
I'm always a cup half full kind of person. I have been inspired by watching generations of Canadians sign up for the Canadian Armed Forces when there was a need, and that is really part and parcel of our history if you look at any of the conflicts, World War I, World War II, Korea, peacekeeping missions, and my first-hand experience with Afghanistan. I've been inspired by the tens of thousands of Canadians who've signed up and wanted to be something greater than themselves. In addition, I have seen Canadians sign up because the Canadian Armed Forces got a new piece of equipment, an aircraft, a ship, and they wanted to serve on it, and I've seen, I'll use the example of Afghanistan, people sign up in the Armed Forces right from the age of 17, 18, all the way through to grandparents signing up in their mid-fifties because they wanted part of the adventure, they wanted to prove something to themselves and to others. During the height of the Afghan campaign, recruiting was up across the Canadian Armed Forces across the country by 10% except in two provinces, Quebec and Alberta, where the recruiting was up 15%. So, I am an optimist and I believe that under the right conditions, that Canadians will join up if there's a need and if they see that they can be part of something greater than themselves.
[00:09:59 Text appears onscreen that reads "Can you walk us through some of your personal experiences with combat?"]
So, my first exposure to, I'll call it conflict, was as a captain on top of this hill in Cyprus in February of 1989, Stavros Hill.
[00:10:13 Text appears onscreen that reads "In 1986, he began a five-year regimental tour in Petawawa, serving in various staff and squadron command roles, including a six-month UN peacekeeping mission in Cyprus" along with a photo of the women's walk home.]
And this was the women's walk home, and we had just left Petawawa, Ontario, again, February. It was -25 in Petawawa. Within seven days, we're standing on top of this hill, Stavros Hill in Cyprus. It is 88 Fahrenheit and we are arm-in-arm as blue beret United Nations peacekeepers holding off Turkish riot police from clubbing Greek civilians behind us, and I get hit by an electric cattle prod by a Turkish riot policeman, and I am stunned, I am down, pick myself back up, and start saying to this guy, give me your number, take your number, and we're going to hold our line. And again, there are weapons, it is like chaos. That was the first time in conflict and there were a number more in Cyprus. Fast forward, I'm in Bosnia.
[00:11:21 Text appears onscreen that reads "In May 1994, Natynczyk began a year-long UN tour in the former Yugoslavia, serving as Sector South-West Chief of Operations in Bosnia and later as Chief of Land Operations at UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb, Croatia" along with a photo of military personnel.]
I'm in the middle of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it is May and June of 1994.
[00:11:33 Text appears onscreen that reads "In June 1995, Natynczyk was assigned to the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff at National Defence HQ in Ottawa. He then commanded his regiment for two years, leading the Dragoons during domestic operations in the 1998 Ottawa ice storm" along with a photo of military personnel standing outside the Bosnia Hercegovina Command Headquarters Sector South West.]
And I'm assigned to a United Nations headquarters, again, blue beret, United Nations, and the headquarters for Sector South West is in the middle of the confrontation zone. So, within a kilometre, we have a demarcation line between the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosniaks who are a Muslim-based society.
[00:11:48 Text appears onscreen that reads "In 1998, he returned to Bosnia as Canadian Contingent Commander. Upon returning to Ottawa in March 1999, he was appointed J3 Plans and Operations, overseeing deployments to Kosovo, Bosnia, East Timor, and Eritrea".]
And there's minefields all around us and we're getting shelled and there is a firefight happening like right around us, and I called my higher headquarters and I said, 'I just want to report that we're in the middle of this firefight and rounds coming in', and the higher headquarters says, 'Hey, Walt, you're just going to have to deal with it because here in Sarajevo, we're hiding under the desks because rounds are coming down on us again.' Just a few weeks later, having to go to a meeting in Sarajevo and a French pilot brings in a little helicopter, a little gazelle helicopter, and I'm hoping to go straight to Sarajevo, and he says, 'I just want to make sure that you really have to go to Sarajevo because the airport's closed, our alternate is the Olympic stadium, it's under sniper fire, and so the only place we're going to land is the tennis court behind the telephone building and then you're going to have to hop in an armoured car and go down Sniper Alley to the headquarters, so I just want to make sure this is not military tourism' (laughs), and I said, 'hey pal, I would only go if there's a need.' And sure enough, we just made it, great skill. He landed that helicopter in a tennis court. I hopped in a French army Véhicule Reconnaissance Blindé, a little armoured car, and went down this main road into Sarajevo and the bullets were flying off. Fast forward, I'm in Iraq.
[00:13:30 Text appears onscreen that reads "In January 2004, he deployed to Baghdad, Iraq, with III Corps, first as Deputy Director of Strategy, Policy, and Plans, and later as Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps – Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom" along with a picture of Walter Natynczyk dressed in military gear.]
I'm in Iraq in 2004. I spent a whole year in Iraq, January to December, and I still remember visiting General Petraeus, Dave Petraeus.
[00:13:43 Text appears onscreen that reads "He was later awarded the Meritorious Service Cross for his combat efforts during Operation Iraqi Freedom from January 2004 to January 2005".]
He had his division up in the North and we're visiting, and on a Sunday morning, nice, quiet Sunday morning, and getting onto a helicopter. We took off. And just before we took off, I talked to a bunch of chaplains who were there for Sunday service and we visited all of the units around because my responsibility was for all of the combat support units. I had about 35,000 american troops reporting to me at the time. And so, I was responsible for a lot of the logistics, the engineering, the hospitals, civil military affairs, and so on. And so, we were visiting each of these units that I was responsible for. By the time we got to the hospitals, we rolled in and they're in the middle of a mass casualty. What occurred was, as we took off, rounds came in and that group of chaplains and their servers got hit, and here they were on the table. So, my view on combat is that it's like a lottery. You're there and you just hope that things work out. You do your best you can and you focus on your mission.
[00:14:50 Text appears onscreen that reads "What motivates someone like you to embrace this type of public service, especially given the risks involved?"]
I would root again my motivation, my inspiration back to my father and my mother, and their love for Canada because Canada gave them a home after extraordinary circumstances, the deprivation, the difficulty they had in Europe, in war. My father fought for the Free Polish Army and my mother was actually in the German Air Force. So, they fought against each other, so to speak, in World War II, but the fact is Canada took my parents in and gave them a home. So, I have this sense of service. That's my purpose. And so, as I moved along… and again, I never thought that I would become a general, I kind of thought my potential was at captain and that was kind of my goal, to be a captain (laughs), but things just kind of happened, but this notion of giving back to the country. And as I mentioned earlier on, because I had these operational experiences, I believe that once you understand what the most junior person in your organization is doing, kind of like my dad who was a private, then if you understood their context, you could enable their success. You could give them the tools, give them the resources, give them the guidance, give them the flexibility to achieve their mission and to do it successfully, and that's what I tried to do at all of the rank levels that I had, especially because of this combat experience. And after having declared success at a junior rank, I realized that success wasn't about me. Success was about enabling the mission success of the most junior folks in the organization.
[00:16:57 Text appears onscreen that reads "Is it true that at some rank level, superiors become difficult to work with?"]
So, as I mentioned before, having been an air cadet, I always had put the notion of a captain on a pedestal. Within an air cadet, army cadet, sea cadets, generally a captain is the commanding officer, so you put them on a pedestal. Years later, here I am, a captain, and I declared success. However, I saw some of my peers get promoted ahead of time, so to speak, to the rank of major, and some of them came across as being entitled, that they had this privilege, and I still remember one insisting upon a staff car as a major, and whereas when they were a junior officer with me, officer cadet, second lieutenant, lieutenant, captain, you could share your innermost thoughts, you could trust them, you had confidence in each other, and it was great. They got to this rank of major and above, and in my mind, they became really difficult. So, in February of 1987, I was on an exercise in the Arctic, in Iqaluit, and it was so cold.
[00:18:15 A photo of Walter Natynczyk on exercise in Iqaluit is shown.]
At one point in time, it was -104, so cold that the aircraft bringing up our Brigadier General Commander of the Base Petawawa and the brigade there brought up this General Kent Foster, who by the way, went on to be a three-star and later the Deputy Minister of Health, and I've given this story in front of him and he said that's exactly what occurred, but he got stuck with us in Iqaluit as the aircraft broke down. It was so cold out, the windshield, the windscreen cracked. So, we went down to the only, I guess, social centre in Iqaluit at the time. It was called the Legion. And after having a few 'pop', we got into a very frank discussion and I had the courage to say, General, at what rank level does an officer become a twit? And he says, what do you mean? And I kind of laid out what I just did, as a junior officer, they're great, and all of a sudden, they are really difficult to deal with, they become a twit, at what rank level?
And in a nanosecond, blink of an eye, he says, lieutenant colonel. I thought, why is that? He said, up to that point, up to that moving up to the ranks, it's about the team, but they get to the certain rank of lieutenant colonel, which again, I've told this story in front of numerous public service crowds and I equate to Director, and it's no longer about the team, it's about them. And he says, these folks become ambitious and so it becomes about them and their rise to the top. And then, he said something that was really key. Again, this is in the context of 1987. He said, there are actually three-star generals who don't get their fourth star and they consider themselves failures, and I thought about that a lot, and this is why I declared success at that point. And looking back on it, I know who he was talking about in a 1987 context. And as a Chief of Defence, I had exactly this problem where people put their own ambition, their own ego ahead of the good of the team and sometimes ahead of values.
[00:20:58 Text appears onscreen that reads "What does leadership mean to you?"]
Leadership means, to me, being the best example that you can be to enable others to be successful to achieve a wider goal.
[00:21:14 Text appears onscreen that reads "What is the role of the Chief of Defence Staff in the Canadian Armed Forces?"]
[00:21:27 Text appears onscreen that reads "On June 6, 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper appointed Walter Natynczyk as the Chief of the Defence Staff" along with a photo Stephen Harper, Walter Natynczyk, Peter MacKay and an unidentified man.]
The Chief of Defence Staff is in perpetual motion, receiving direction, strategic direction, national direction from the Prime Minister in support of the Minister who is responsible for the day-to-day operation of the Canadian Armed Forces.
[00:21:36 Text appears onscreen that reads "On February 16, 2012, in Washington, General Martin Dempsey, U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, presented Natynczyk with the Legion of Merit" along with a photo of Dempsey and Natynczyk posing with the Legion of Merit. "Credit: Copyright US Mission Canada, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons"]
In close partnership with the Deputy Minister who is the accounting officer, therefore responsible for not only finance but policy and all the other support activities to the operations of the Canadian Armed Forces.
[00:21:48 Text appears onscreen that reads "Natynczyk retired from the Canadian Armed Forces in December 2012 to pursue a career in public service."]
Working also with the other deputy ministers in the community, especially those who have a defence, security, intelligence, foreign affairs interest or mandate, and relating all of that to the most junior people in the organization. I spent a lot of time travelling. I visited Afghanistan 20 times because the situation would change so much and it was our major operation, but I spent time with our ships, our naval crews. I visited our Air Force squadrons both at home and deployed domestic operations, whether we were sandbagging in a flooded river, but to be able to see and gain conviction with what the needs were of the most junior folks and giving them the opportunity to talk to me and then transcending to be able to go meet the Prime Minister, and during my time, I had access to him, direct access to him, and to brief him on the activities of the Canadian Armed Forces and how we were doing outside of operations, whether it be equipment acquisition, personnel policy, transformation of the force, with the support of my minister, again with an informed deputy. Surprise is a principle of war.
You don't want to use surprise on your close friends, your boss or your junior, so again, communication being important but I would try to link the Prime Minister down to the most junior, and the reverse to inform the Prime Minister, and this cycle of communications and information was ongoing because I could never predict what would happen next. During my time, not only was Afghanistan a huge operation for us but we also had the 2010 winter Olympics in Vancouver, supporting the province of British Columbia and the police forces with another 5,500 men and women of the Armed Forces. We had the operation in Libya, the NATO operation in Libya, and a whole bunch of others, the earthquake in Haiti, we had over 2,000 men and women supporting the operation in Haiti, informing everyone in anticipation of what could occur in the future. And so, as Chief, I was in perpetual motion and always informing folks.
[00:24:41 Text appears onscreen that reads "Can you compare the environment in which the Canadian Armed Forces operated back then to the challenges they face today?"]
In 1979, I was qualified as a tank troop leader.
[00:24:58 A photo of Walter Natynczyk as a tank troop leader is shown.]
So, four tanks, with myself, 16 soldiers on NATO duty. At the time it was called West Germany, and I still remember when, at the time, the Soviets went into Afghanistan and we didn't know what was going to happen next. So, we all deployed into our combat zones. And as chaotic as it was, in reflection, it was a period of tension but predictable tension between, at that time, the Warsaw Pact and the West. Fast forward to now, the world is very unstable. I would say with the conflict happening in Ukraine and in the Middle East, the tension in Southeast Asia, the world is much more volatile. And with the proliferation of nuclear weapons of chemical weapons, I would say the uncertainty has increased and therefore the risks have increased. I think that it is also very ambiguous, more so than it was when I joined. So, I think the situation globally is very dangerous. I think that the Canadian Armed Forces has the equipment that the Government of Canada will give it with the support of civil society. So, that's something the Government of Canada has got to figure out. I would just say however that the need is great and the predictability of what will happen in the future is gone. And so, this is a very troubling period.
[00:27:00 Text appears onscreen that reads "What was your next step after serving in the Canadian Armed Forces?"]
So, as Chief of Defence, again, I had access to the Prime Minister and he asked me what I would like to do after my service, which I thought was terrific, I mean, very kind for him to ask, and I said that I would really like to be the Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs, and he wondered why. I said, while serving, I am trying to do everything possible to enable the success of those men and women in harm's way and bring them home to their families. What I really worry is about once they have come home serving in Canada and once they take off the uniform, have we done everything possible to enable their success to transition to civil society and to contribute to Canada? I would always worry that we were supporting folks in Afghanistan or Libya or Haiti and I lost so many to mental health injuries and suicide here in Canada. And so, I wanted… I asked for an opportunity to support those men and women and their transition. I was surprised when the phone call came in and it actually was from the Clerk, saying we'd like you to be the President of Canadian Space Agency.
[00:28:38 A News Release is shown from June 14 2013 titled "PM announces changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service". Text appears onscreen that reads "On August 6, 2013, he was named President of the Canadian Space Agency" along with an image of a news release of the announcement.]
And I think I responded, space? Are you sure? You're talking to Walt Natynczyk, someone with a degree that says business administration but in reality, my professors know the degree is in rugby and football.
[00:28:51 Text appears onscreen that reads "He later became the 9th Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada, starting on November 3rd, 2014. He retired from public service in 2021".]
And they said, yeah. And listen, I thrived. I enjoyed the Canadian Space Agency, being surrounded by extraordinary innovation, intellect, capability, imagination, and recognizing how important space and the use of space is for Canada.
[00:29:18 Text appears onscreen that reads "What advice would you give to a junior public servant just starting out their career?"]
I want to thank them for their service. There are many ways to serve Canada. Some people put on the uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces. Some people become a police officer, firefighter, other first responders. Some go into the medical field, some go into private business and they make this country stronger economically, and some provide leadership and essential support to Canadians coast to coast to coast. We're all serving, every one of us. And I must tell you, I followed the public service values when I was deputy, and I would speak about those values because no matter where you are in the structure, if you abide by those public service values, you will provide extraordinary support to Canadians. The notion of respect for democracies, respect for people, integrity, excellence, and stewardship. Again, I retired three years ago and someone may have changed those, but the reality is I abided by those. And certainly, at the Space Agency and Veterans Affairs, I would speak about those values to the most junior employees, who by the way, I would walk around in their office flats and sit in their cubicles and shoot the breeze and thank them for their service, and that's what I'd like to do today. Well done.
[00:30:57 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]
[00:31:04 The Government of Canada logo appears onscreen.]
