Key Considerations in Procuring Professional Services (COR4-V01)

Transcript: Key Considerations in Procuring Professional Services

CSPS Descriptive: HAP-071-Key Considerations in Procuring Professional Services

[00:00:00 CSPS animated logo appears.]

[00:00:06 Emily Wehbi appears full screen. Text on screen: Senior Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directrice principale, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emily Wehbi: Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to this session of the Leadership Series entitled Key Considerations When Procuring Professional Services. Thank you so much for joining us.

 My name is Emily Wehbi. I work for the Treasury Board Secretariat. I am the Senior Director and lead for the Procurement and Materiel Management policy centres.

[00:00:32 Overlaid text on screen: Opening remarks; Key Considerations in Procuring Professional Services; Best practices and strategies for navigating the procurement process. / Discours d'ouverture; Principales considérations pour l'approvisionnement en services professionnels, Les pratiques exemplaires et les stratégies liées au processus d'approvisionnement.]

 Emily Wehbi: So, before we begin, I would like to start with a land acknowledgement and acknowledge that I am working here on unceded Anishinaabe territory. I would encourage everybody that is joining us today to take a moment to reflect on the Indigenous peoples, and the traditional territories upon which you work. We are approaching National Indigenous Peoples' Day on June 21. This is an important day to stop and reflect on the rich history of Indigenous peoples and their continued presence and vibrance on these lands.

Before we welcome our panelists, I would like to talk about a couple housekeeping items. So, just a reminder that we have simultaneous interpretation available for this discussion, you can also access the CART services. That's the Communication Access Real-time Translation through the webcasting platform. You can refer to the reminder email that was sent to you by the Canada School to access these features.

Today we're going to be talking and interacting through the webcast interface via the chat function. So, to ask a question, please go ahead to the top of the screen and click on the chat bubble icon.

Feel free to use the language of your choice to engage with the panellists and me, and to ask your questions.

I'm excited to welcome our panelists today and to have an opportunity to speak with you and engage with the community about this very, very important topic.

So, as many of you have probably been watching and monitoring this space, there have been some developments recently, and we're all here today to help members of the federal community to understand their responsibilities vis a vis determining whether or not procurement is the right tool to aid in a procurement, or to aid in program delivery, rather, and also manage the ensuing contracts.

We've been working hard to ensure that business owners and contracting authorities have the guidance and tools they need to ensure the principles of integrity, documentation, avoidance of conflict of interest, and best value underpin all decision making.

So, there's been a focus at all levels on the importance of strengthening our management and oversight in the procurement space, particularly with respect to contracted professional services resources. This has also been reiterated in Budget 2024.

As you may be aware, last fall the Treasury Board Secretariat published the Manager's Guide: Key Considerations When Procuring Professional Services as a resource for the community, for business owners. Now, recently last week, elements of this guide have been embedded in mandatory procedures within the directive on the management of procurement. And this is to help improve accountability and planning and managing of contracts. So, [with] today's panel, we are going to be opening the floor to all of you and your important questions on this topic, and we will also be providing you with some updates. Now to introduce our panelists.

[00:03:23 Split screen: Emily Wehbi and Samantha Tattersall.]

Emily Wehbi: Our first panelist is Samantha Tattersall, the Assistant Comptroller General of the Acquired Services and Assets Sector in the Treasury Board Secretariat's Office of the Comptroller General.

[00:03:35 Split screen: Emily Wehbi and Emilio Franco.]

Emily Wehbi: Our second panelist is Emilio Franco, Executive Director of the Procurement, Materiel, and Communities Directorate within the Office of Comptroller General.

[00:03:44 Split screen: Emily Wehbi and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: And, last but not least, we are also joined by Lysane Bolduc, Director General of the Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector at PSPC.

[00:03:52 Emily Wehbi appears full screen.]

Emily Wehbi: With all of that out of the way and without further ado, let's now turn to our questions and to our discussion.

[00:4:00 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: The first question: the Manager's Guide, and the mandatory procedures are directly related to business owners' responsibilities – that is, the managers – while previous procurement policy instruments were primarily directed towards procurement specialists. Perhaps Emilio or Samantha, could you tell us a little bit about why this shift is happening?

[00:04:21 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen.]

Samantha Tattersall: I'll start, and then Emilio will jump in after and say something far more intelligent than me.

[00:04:26 Overlaid text on screen: Assistant Comptroller General, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Contrôleuse générale adjointe, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Samantha Tattersall: So, I'm going to start by saying it's an interesting question, because there's always been responsibilities for business owners or managers. So, just to keep it simple, I'm going to just use the term managers. But what I mean is the business owner.

So, in a procurement, there's always two keys. There's the person or the team that wants or needs the procurement to deliver something for them. That's who we call the manager or business owner. And then there's the actual contracting authority that helps you execute that procurement, does the administration, and sets up the contract. But those two come together, so there's always been a role.

So, I know people love to read Treasury Board policies on the weekend when they're sitting outside in the sun. But if you actually read the procurement directive, it talks about roles and responsibilities for both you, as managers, and also the contracting authority.

So, this isn't something new. But why did we develop guidance, and why did we develop a mandatory procedure? I think what really became clear to me, probably over a year ago, was some of the things that we were seeing in reviews of contracting was that it seemed that people may not have fully understood all the responsibilities or accountabilities in the procurement space. And also, if you're the person who wants the procurement, you need to be an informed buyer.

So, you need to understand procurement if you're going to procure. I can go on and I'll say more during the session, but I'll just leave it there as to why we've always been speaking to you, but now we're trying to speak to you, hopefully, in a bit more plain-language way so you can understand what your accountabilities are in this space.

[00:06:29 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: Thanks, Sam. And I think just building on that, people have always approached procurement, I would say historically, in thinking it's very much that procurement officer's responsibility.

[00:06:34 Overlaid text on screen: Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directeur exécutif, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emilio Franco: And that's only really partially true. As Sam put, procurement officers are there to be the stewards of the process and protect its integrity. But the managers, the ones that are requesting that procurement to buy a good; to hire a service, they have key responsibilities as well that need to be understood. For example, identifying the outcomes. So, it's not the procurement officer that's going to tell you what the thing that you're buying needs to achieve. That's the manager's responsibility to say, what am I looking for? What am I trying to achieve, and what is that going to look like? Understanding why you're contracting for it. Again, that's a core responsibility of, why are you contracting and not, for example, hiring a public servant or going to a grant or contribution route.

Now, making sure that once a contract is in place, you're managing that responsibility of the delivery of the work, making sure that things that are set out in the contract are being fulfilled. And then when you get those invoices in, that you're signing off, that that invoice was reflective of the work performed. And, of course, keeping those detailed financial records and documenting all your rationale for key decisions. These are manager responsibilities throughout the process.

As well, managers must follow their organization's governance processes and it is also th[eir] responsibility to engage with procurement specialists throughout the process of procurement, planning, and contract management and close-out. Indeed, this also applies to their actions. All these steps must be guided by the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Sector, specifically by taking into account real, potential or apparent conflicts of interest. Lastly, we should also ask ourselves whether our decisions as managers will withstand public scrutiny, build confidence in government and demonstrate responsible management of public funds.

So, at the end of the day, making sure that it's clear that managers and procurement officers have a responsibility jointly in procurement to make sure that at the end of the day, the procurement process is followed correctly, but also that it's done with integrity and delivers a good outcome is why we brought this all together.

[00:08:43 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Excellent. Thank you so much, Emilio and Sam. I guess my next question is, just on behalf of all the managers that are listening in today, can you tell us a little bit more about some of the supports or the efforts that you have been doing at TBS to help managers execute in these responsibilities?

Emilio Franco: I'll take that one. So, I think first, the Manager's Guide that we'll be talking about today is a really practical tool that we put in place to evolve over time as we better understand community, but also as a tool to support managers in thinking through those important decisions around professional services.

At the beginning, of whether or not to even use procurement to achieve your objective; how you go about structuring that procurement. And then finally, once a contract is in place, how you manage that procurement. And those are important steps in that process that the Manager's Guide provides all sorts of helpful, what we think is user-friendly, questions that you can ask yourself to help guide you through that process, and make sure that you're coming to the table as an informed buyer and making sure that you're asking yourself the right things to follow a good prudent process.

Also, events like this. So, you'll see a lot more events with the Canada School, we had one last fall. We have another one right now to support you in your role. We're integrating more procurement into some of the manager courses and the executive courses that the Canada School offers.

And I think as well, just broadly, I know across the public service, there are important discussions around values and ethics that are occurring. I expect that those conversations will have a bit of a flavour of procurement, and which will serve in addition for all of us, a good reminder of how procurement at the end of the day is not just about getting something, but it's about spending public funds. And with that comes not only process and policy considerations but strikes at our core responsibilities.

So, we have guidance supporting through sessions like this, but also broader conversations, I think are important reminders for managers about our broader responsibilities.

Samantha Tattersall: If I could just add, Emily?

Emily Wehbi: Go for it.

Samantha Tattersall: Those are the supports. I'd like to say two things. One is, I didn't grow up in the procurement field so it's like, how do I know what I'm supposed to do?

[00:11:00 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen.]

Samantha Tattersall: So, the first thing I always think about is, when you hire somebody, or you go and do a staffing action, there are things that your HR people will be responsible for and things that you will be responsible for. So, I always think of it as your statement of work is like what you would set up for your poster. Or the procurement strategy, whether you're going to manage through talent or do a deployment, it's the same as, am I going competitive? What mechanism? But it's understanding your role. So, the guide helps you understand what your roles are.

The one other thing I'd add, and we'll get to it later, is we also announced a new mandatory procedure. I know we have the greatest names here at TBS for our instruments. But what it will actually do is it will – the idea is it's going to embed in your procurement sign off system in your departments, certain things that you as managers are going to have to document and sign off.

So, there will be supports in terms of guides, but there will now be a point in time at different stages of the procurement process where you're going to have to sign off on things, and your procurement specialist should help you, but it'll be more embedded in the system, so there will be a trigger point. So, it's not like, what do I do now? It will be embedded in the approval process to help you for things that you should already be doing now, as business owners and managers.

[00:12:36 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Excellent. Thank you so much. Samantha.

Lysane, can you tell us a little about the importance of the business owner's role within the procurement process, especially their role in integrating valuesand ethics principles?

[00:12:56 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen. Text on screen: Director General, Public Services and Procurement Canada. / Directrice Générale, Services publics et Approvisionnement Canada.]

Lysane Bolduc: Yes, I'd be glad to. In fact, business owners, or managers, play a vital role in procurement processes. First, they are the ones who define the need to leverage the private sector, or what we call the “scope of work.” The better those needs are defined, the more easily the work can be monitored and its quality evaluated based on the deliverables defined in the contract.
Next, managers, or business owners, are also best positioned to judge the value for money offered by service providers: this is because, upon taking ownership of the procurement, it is they who best know the market in which the program, or project, operates. Then, within the framework of contract management, as Emilio said, it is they who are able to evaluate whether the deliverables correspond to what the contract requires.
So, I come from the infrastructure field. I am particularly accustomed to definitions being very well designed before going to tender in the private market. In that market, there is always a definition by often private-sector hired professionals, such as architects and engineers, before going to tender to carry out the construction.
So, I know that in professional services, the more recent business lines in newer fields, such as information management and information technologies, may have fewer pre-existing well-defined standards. So at the moment it's a little more difficult to clearly define the overall scope of projects and, hence, of contracts. In these cases, it is still about quickly contacting us at procurement. And now I have just seen that there was a question. It takes a while. I would simply like to remind you that all departments have procurement officers. So your first point of contact is within your department. But I think that with us, if we are contacted in advance and we work upstream with you, we can build agile contract structures. This requires suppliers to deliver small milestones that are very well defined as you implement your contracts, and then as the work progresses.
This type of contract allows for an off-ramp option when the work is not going as well as hoped; conversely, it allows for continuing work that is going really well.
As business owners, you also confirm that the deliverables we have received fully meet the contractual requirements. It is then on that basis that you authorize the payment of invoices received from the supplier. It's a super important role. We must not forget that.

Lastly, as business owners, you are in a position to properly document the management of your contracts. As Emilio mentioned, this function is truly essential to maintain public confidence in our procurement processes. Emily has talked about ethics and I know we're going to come back to that. I didn't quite answer the question but we'll come back to it a little later. Thank you very much Emily.

[00:16:13 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: No, no problem.

Thank you so much, Lysane. And opening it up to the other panelists as well. If anyone wants to add to the important role of the business owner, especially with regards to values and ethics, please feel free to jump in.

Samantha Tattersall: Sorry, I'm having a trouble unmuting myself. I just think we're talking about values and ethics in the context of [the] business owner. But I think we have to take a step back and just think about overall values and ethics as public servants. And what I would just say on that is we all have a responsibility to ensure that we're upholding the code in our conduct. That can be any engagement with vendors or suppliers all the way through the process.

I'm old, so I will say, when I was starting in the public service, it was always like, is your behaviour such that you can end up on the front page of the Globe and Mail? There are no front pages anymore. So, it's always that idea that you should be above public scrutiny. Whatever you're doing should be almost beyond reproach because it's not just whether you're in a conflict of interest, for example, but a perceived conflict of interest.

And so, I would just say, and we may get to it later about the mandatory procedure, but it's really important just to refresh yourself on the code and how you carry yourself as a public servant, especially in an environment, if you're following committee discussions of late, which is an environment that is under great spotlight right now. That isn't the reason for which we uphold the code, but it reinforces the importance of why that code is there.

Lysane Bolduc: Emily, if I might add, last week PSPC launched a new office, the Office of Supplier Integrity and Compliance. This new PSPC organization will make it possible to better identify suppliers of concern, take appropriate action to mitigate the risk they pose, and promote ethical business practices in the marketplace.
So, Samantha has talked about our responsibility as managers, procurement officers and business owners. However, the private sector also has responsibility. It's important to remember that. And of course, PSPC is taking actions to ensure that private sector suppliers also take those responsibilities. Thank you.

Emily Wehbi: Thank you Lysane; thank you Samantha. Lysane and Emilio, what are the main topics of the feedback you receive when engaging with the procurement community and suppliers?

Emilio Franco: I think I'll start and then I'll pass to Lysane. So, I'll be honest. I think the biggest thing I hear from the procurement community is, at the end of the day, procurement communities are professionals, and they take their responsibilities very seriously.

[00:19:28 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: They're there to support and they want to do a good job, and they really appreciate all the demands that their clients are under. I know sometimes when you go to procurement, it seems like it's going to take too long, they don't appreciate the pressures. They appreciate it. They're trying to balance their professional responsibility for a process with trying to help a client meet the significant pressure that they may be under and the important priority that they're probably delivering to Canadians, or for Canada as a whole.

And so, I think the biggest feedback that we get from them is that frustration that occurs between the tension that the client has to deliver something, and the tension that the procurement professional has to make sure that that's done in a way that is compliant, is with integrity, and also gets a good outcome at the end of the day, comes down to just the understanding of everyone at the table.

And one of the big things I hear from both procurement professionals and from managers, is that the process isn't always clear. And a lot of people come to procurement not having done procurement very often. And so, if you're a manager, you've been a manager for 10,20 years, and now suddenly you've been asked to do a procurement. You don't know all the rules, you don't know all the templates, you don't know the right things to ask, the right buttons to press to get the right outcome.

And so, it can be frustrating because you're under a deadline, you get to procurement, and you need to do it now. And they say, well, where's your statement of work? What do you mean the statement of work? What's my statement of work? What do I do? What do I write? What are you talking about? I just need to get this done.

So, things like the Manager's Guide are there to help managers better understand those types of things that they need to be thinking about before they hit procurement, when they start having those conversations to be a better-informed buyer. And I think that's probably the big thing that the procurement community is looking for, is that the better informed their clients are about the process, about being a good buyer, the better they can work together. If that's not there, then the procurement officer is there to work with their client to help them understand the process. But that can be a frustrating learning exercise when there's a big pressure to deliver.

So, I think that's the big thing that I hear from the community. And so, again, the more that both sides can better understand the perspectives and the needs and the desires of the other side, the better the procurement can function. And that's why things like this are important. That's why the Manager's Guide is important, is to help those conversations occur. And that's probably the biggest thing we hear from the community in this space.

Lysane?

[00:22:01 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Lysane Bolduc: Thank you, Emilio. What I'm going to do is add a point of view, perhaps the private sector point of view, to what Emilio has already said. So, obviously managers engage in the process. Procurement officers engage in the process. But we must never forget that the private sector is equally a stakeholder. Changes are currently being introduced for them as well. They too may have organized their business, or company, in a given way. Now we are going to ask them different questions, or the same questions, just differently. So they too need our support to adapt to what we want to do within professional services.
So, I think an important thing to do is ask managers and the private sector to increase solutions when we will be making procurements, and to reduce the type of procurement method that constitutes tasks. What are we doing in that case? Well, we are asking managers to shift the risk to the private sector rather than keep it.
When we recruit human resources but keep the responsibility for a project, enterprise or program, with resources that help us deliver it, we also keep the risk. Often we will pay a price that is in fact more expensive than if we used our own employees, without transferring the risk to the private sector.

So one of the things that the revised guide and new directive ask managers to do—and I think it's important—is to clearly define the scope. What does that mean? It means that we are asking the private sector for solutions. We are transferring the risk to them.
This means that while it is obvious that our clients, the business owners, will need to adapt, so will the private sector. We need to help them adapt because many of these people within professional sectors are in fact staffing agencies. That's going to change and we have to help them.
In addition, we are also asking the private sector—to their great surprise—for more transparency in terms of their overhead and profit margin. They have never seen that before. So the reason they have never seen that before is because the basic principle of going to tender is to obtain the cheapest price. We don't need to know what underlies the price in terms of profit margin layers.
We realize that when we hire people from the private sector, we in fact need to know exactly, or anyhow at least a little more accurately, how much profit margin we are earning on these people. Why do we need to do that? Well, because the public sector has a duty to report and explain that we obtain good value for money on what we purchase.
That requires significant adaptation from the private sector. Next, what does the private sector ask of us and what can we do for them? Well they are asking us—and I think the business owners will agree with this—to simplify and digitize processes. This is one of the things that PSPC is getting ready to do. Also, the private sector, particularly small and medium businesses and diverse enterprises, is asking us for more direct access to federal government solicitations.
So it's up to us to help them access all these tools more easily, more quickly and more simply. Thank you.

Samantha Tattersall: Maybe I could add just one thing. Something I hear a lot about is frustration with lack of planning.

So, what I would say to you is procurement will be seen as slow, but you may have had spent all this time developing a program,

[00:26:23 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen.]

Samantha Tattersall: or developing a policy, and it's going to need a procurement. But you do all this work and then all of a sudden, you're like, okay, I'm ready. I need a procurement. And then you turn to your procurement folks and go, hey, I need to get this done. What's taking so long? And so, just like back in the day, people used to develop programs and policies, and then they go, okay, IT, make this digital. You don't do that anymore. You plan, you develop digitally.

I'm asking, I am pleading with those who are listening that when you're developing, whatever you're implementing, if it's a project, if it's a policy, and you think there's going to be procurement involved, bring us forward earlier. Even sometimes when you're doing your MC and TB submission phase, if it's a big initiative, if it's just part of routine business, because that happens often. And so, procurement is seen as slow or something to get around or done quickly when you should have been thinking about it earlier.

So, that should be something I'm really asking people to think about, is procurement is there to enable the delivery of an outcome. If you need it, it needs to be thought of early and often.

[00:27:45 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Thank you so much, Samantha. Thank you, everybody. So, this is a question I'm going to open up to everybody now. Do you have any advice for managers when they're at the earliest stages and they're trying to make the decision around program or project delivery and determine whether or not procurement is even the right choice to meet their business needs?

Emilio Franco:

So, maybe I'll start. Contracting is one of many approaches to resource an initiative.

[00:28:16 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directeur exécutif, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emilio Franco: And I think in a lot of cases, procurement tends to be viewed as slow, but HR tends to be viewed as even slower. So, people hit the procurement button instead of the staffing button.

And so, the first thing in the guide, what it really says is take a pause and think about, what is actually the best way to achieve your organizational objective and how is the way in which you're going to go resourcing – not procuring, resourcing – that initiative going to best align with your ability to deliver on that mandate and that priority. And it lays out a number of different questions that you may want to ask yourself. There are ways to get public servants in quickly. There are tools; there are various types of staffing actions; there are internal programs within government. And so, look at those, and look at those first before you make that decision to procure. So, it's just that double check to say, hey, take a pause, think about it and what's the best way of moving forward? And sometimes recognizing that some of those approaches aren't feasible and that's ultimately why you're procuring.

I think the other thing to think about is that when you're making that decision, think about not just how do you procure, but how do you procure in a way that helps then support and contribute to your core competencies and your ability as a public service to grow capacity, knowledge, and so on.

So, for example, if you're going to bring in a consultant, how about some knowledge transfer requirements that they – yes, okay, you need to supplement – but it's also, let's bring some knowledge into the public service. And so, recognizing that, first pausing, making that right decision about whether to procure or not, and then should it be a decision to procure, also thinking about what's the best way of doing that procurement, not just to deliver on the objective, but also to supplement, to grow and build the capacity in house, particularly if it's going to be a longer term procurement.

[00:30:06 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: Maybe I'll add to, which is – sorry, Lysane – a lot of times people say,

[00:30:12 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Assistant Comptroller General, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Contrôleuse générale adjointe, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Samantha Tattersall: yes, but the funding I have is B-based funding. It's sunsetting funding. I don't have the funding to hire people, or I have operation funding, I don't have salary funding. So, you'll see there's the prompt. I think as managers, we all know this, you can convert operating to salary dollars. It's, again, aligning your needs.

So, when we talk about why do we have professional services? There are legitimate reasons why you would contract for professional services. Sometimes there's a surge need, there's specific expertise. Like, there is a need, a legitimate need, but it's sort of that, okay, it's that check. Does it fall into that bucket? And then what if it's a longer-term thing? So, maybe I have an immediate kind of demand, so I'm filling a gap now, but maybe I need a longer-term plan if this is going to be a long-term thing that I'm thinking about what my longer-term HR strategy is, as Emilio said.

And I'm making sure that while I'm using that consultant, that that knowledge transfer is going to come back, because we do know, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn, that there are people where you have consultants that are working for longer than a short-term surge need. So, I think that if that's a longer-term need, how we're doing that knowledge transfer back into the public service.

[00:31:41 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Lysane Bolduc: Emily, if I could, I'd like to maybe make a heartfelt plea to respond to what Samantha has said. A little earlier she said something in English; I'm going to talk about it in French [Translated into English here].

[00:31:53 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen. Text on screen: Director General, Public Services and Procurement Canada. / Directrice générale, Services publics et Approvisionnement Canada.]

Lysane Bolduc: So, as I said a little earlier, I come from the world of infrastructure. In infrastructure we have project managers. We plan all our activities. To a certain extent, in this field, we also plan all procurement activities. This may not be the case in all fields that use professional services. So to respond to what Samantha said, from a procurement perspective, what we're hearing is: “You're causing us delays.” Well, of course when a program or project's implementation has been planned for two or three years—sometimes longer—and then suddenly we get to procurement, it's going to be perceived as a delay without it necessarily being the case.
So, my heartfelt plea is, if you are a manager, or a business owner, please involve us early on in planning the delivery of your programs and projects.
And, Emily, I'll come back to the question of what we should think about when we want to issue a solicitation. I would like to tell you that you know your programs better than we do in procurement. You equally know your projects better than we do. You probably know the market better. If the right decision is to go towards procurement and forgo internal resources, your knowledge of the private sector is crucial to clearly define how to go to tender. Because sometimes, we know we need the private sector but are unsure about it since we lack the expertise on how the private sector could meet our needs. At that point, it's important to use the process for issuing requests for information from the private sector before going to tender. This way we can be certain that they will respond in the best possible way, for the best possible value for money. Thank you.

Emily Wehbi: Thank you, Lysane.

[00:33:52 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Merci, Lysane. So, I've got two more questions, and then I see that there's a lot of awesome questions coming in from the chat.

[00:34:00 Emily Wehbi appears full screen. Text on screen: Senior Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directrice principale, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emily Wehbi: So, thank you so much to everybody that's participating. So, please keep them coming. The next question is, again, opening it up to everybody, but do you have any tips for people when they know that procurement, they've come to the decision, procurement is the way to go, and they actually are at the nitty gritty stage. They're working with the procurement official, a contracting authority, and they're structuring the procurement and they're structuring the contract. Do you have any advice for managers on the line with regards to that step?

[00:34:30 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emilio Franco: So, I'll start maybe just by framing. Once you start that procurement process, as a manager, you really have two core responsibilities at this stage.

[00:34:44 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directeur exécutif, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emilio Franco: One is going to be a statement of work, and the other is an evaluation criterion that is going to fairly determine who that contractor is. And there's a lot of stuff around that, but it boils down to those two pieces. Both of which done, of course, with integrity and making sure that's maintained throughout.

In developing a statement of work, you have those broader responsibilities. Again, going back to managers responsibilities, defining the outcome, what you need. And your statement of work is the document that effectively articulates that. What is my need? What is the outcome that I'm trying to achieve? And as part of that, we always have to remember that we have broader responsibilities that have to be considered in that. So, for example, you may have legal requirements; you may have security requirements; privacy; accessibility; values and ethics; that all have to form into that document. And these are the things that a manager is responsible for doing in their day-to-day obligations that then get formalized and articulated in a statement of work.

As well, you may have broader considerations related to your departmental mandate or government priorities that you also need to be thinking about as part of the structuring. For example, opportunities to support Indigenous businesses as part of your procurement; environmental considerations; socio-economic considerations and again, things like accessibility, and so on. It's documenting and pulling that all together into something that articulates clearly what you're trying to achieve and informs the strategy and approach that you'll be procuring.

And then on the other side, the other element is that evaluation criteria. So, how are you going to be evaluating? And this is something that you need to work very closely with your contracting officer to help build. Which is to say, here are the things that I'm going to use to determine who is going to win the ultimate competition and making sure that's being done in a fair manner. And so, what we mean by fair, it means that you haven't written that in a way that will gear the result towards, potentially, a favourite company, and that everyone is clear on how they're going to be evaluated, and then that's something that's going to be executed on.

So really, when you're structuring, it's really thinking around how and what are you going to really need. And how do you make sure all the things that are priorities for you, your organization and the government are brought into that. And then how are you going to fairly evaluate those that are choosing to respond to it.

[00:37:10 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Lysane Bolduc: Emily, if it's okay, I would like to add something to what Emilio has already said.

[00:37:16 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen.]

Lysane Bolduc: So, Emilio has talked about the importance of clearly defining what you want, that is, “the scope of work” (in French, la portée de ce que vous voulez). I would add that what you define, you must be able to measure. That is to say, the day you receive an invoice and someone asks you, “Should we pay it?” you must be able to say “Yes, I received what I wanted.” Let me give you an example. Emilio has talked about greening your procurement. We can ask for it to be green while remaining very general about it. We can also ask that it meet LEED gold criteria, for example: it's much more precise. At that point we can measure it and then say, “I can pay for that.” When we ask for 100 hours of work from a senior staff member, it's very easy to measure—except that it doesn't at all speak to the quality of what was delivered.
So, take time to think about what you need, not the length of time you need it for or even whom you need. Let the private sector define it because that's where we're going to look for efficiencies. When we tell them “I need this type of person for this length of time,” we deny them every opportunity to come back to us with proposals built on their best skills, like innovation, and potentially improved costs. If we ask for what we want and not whom we want, the opposite occurs. Because then, everything we define is ultimately what we want. Thank you.

[00:39:08 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: I just want to add, because we're talking statement of work.

[00:39:14 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen.]

Samantha Tattersall: So, we have strengthened the requirements that all managers need to have really clear statements of work. I want to triple underline this point to you. I don't know what you're going to take away from this discussion, probably, and hopefully lots of things, but this is one I really just want to triple triple underline. Because if you're watching anything that's going on around other contracting process right now, one of the issues [that] is very clear is that the statements of work were general, and it allowed people to do all sorts of task authorizations against it. That results in two things.

One is, if you're reading auditor general reports, it's hard to follow the money. The second thing is that when it's too general, it's hard to manage people, the contractors, to the outcomes. So, I'm not saying be all detailed about everything you need. It should be outcomes based. But how do you know they're actually delivering on what you've asked for?

[00:40:20 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: And so, the statement of work is so, so critical. Think about it this way because I always make a parallel to HR. You have an employee who's not performing, but then you go back to the PMA and your objective is so general that it's very hard to say whether they're meeting it or not. So, if you have that in your frame, you have to have clarity within your statement of work. I know you may be in a rush sometimes, but that is so critical. That role, that responsibility you have, is so critical to the whole procurement process.

Emily Wehbi: So, I'm going to break my own rule. I was going to go through our questions and then manage the chat, but a question has come in on this point that I think is really important just to stay on this theme.

So, Lysane, we have received a question. Someone has asked us if the community will receive technical evaluation criteria templates for task-based requests for proposals, geared towards contractors rather than resources?

Lysane Bolduc: Okay. So, yes, it's coming. In fact, we already have two types of templates available, which we have published on CanadaBuys. Then we also have check lists that are aligned with the new directives from the Secretary of the Treasury Board, as well as the guide.

[00:41:43 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen.]

Lysane Bolduc: So at the present time, the available templates are for the TBIPS and TSPS methods of supply. We are also developing solution-based templates for contracts and procurement methods. The check list—the French expression has escaped me for now—are specifically for when you do a task authorization. So it's a type of check list. Next, maybe I can generally talk even more about documentation, which is super important in the whole procurement cycle, as of the solicitation until the contract ceases to exist. So the greatest part of this cycle involves you, the managers who manage it. That's because while procurement, solicitation, is done at the onset, all the years during which you manage the contract must also be documented.
So we made a check list for that as well—the French term will surely come back to me before the end of the panel—to make sure that the managers, who are on the invitation to tender, have it. But yes, it is coming for solutions. We are also developing templates. Thanks for the question. Thank you also for reminding us what we need to do to help you.

[00:43:04 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: No, no problem. And Samantha, I think you told folks to triple underline this. So, we're getting a lot of questions, which is good. So, I'm going to do one more and then we're going to keep moving. The next question is, does anyone have any advice? And maybe this is another one for you, Lysane, on how business owners and managers can get better at drafting statements of work.

Lysane Bolduc: Yes. Well, of course there are definitely templates. But I would like to tell you that you have to know the environment you are working in. Find out how the market can support you, how they are organized. If you are not well informed, take time to issue requests for information, which are part of the solicitation process, to better understand what they can actually offer you. Because, just like an individual consumer, before making a big purchase, we try find out what does and doesn't exist, best practices, and what is good value for money as well. When we seek professional services, we need to understand who can offer us what, and what type of service, to be able to structure the solicitations.

Samantha Tattersall: Oh, go ahead, Emilio.

Emilio Franco: I was just going to add to that. I think one of the things that helps simplify a statement of work potentially is a more focus on outcomes than a traditional approach.
In the past, for example, we would say, I need someone to provide me a report on how to increase the efficiency of salmon production in a salmon fishing area. And they would outline all the different things that the report would have to achieve. That takes a lot of work, that takes a lot of thinking and so on.

But taking a more outcomes approach, where you're saying, I need someone to provide me advice with ways to increase the production of salmon by 50%. And then, that comes down to how different people can provide different proposals. It becomes an easier way, and you're just framing it based on the outcome you're trying to achieve, as opposed to having to define a bunch of stuff that becomes much more complicated and difficult to do in the statement of work process. So, just taking a different lens on how these are approached helps simplify and make them easier to write.

Samantha Tattersall: I'm glad you went first because I think it's almost demystifying it. It's like, oh, it's a statement of work. Oh, my gosh. I've never written a statement of work. What's a statement of work? How do I get a statement of work like before? This is procurement. I don't understand it.

It's, breathe. Take a step back. What is it that you're trying to accomplish through your procurement? This is why I talked about even earlier planning, so you're not in a rush. You're procuring. Why are you procuring? What do you want to get out of it? Start from those principles of what is success at the end of the procurement.
So many times, you hear somebody say, I got a report from the consultant, and it isn't what I wanted, so I had to rework it. Okay, then you didn't clearly define at the upfront what you wanted then to allow for the best kind of company or supplier to provide that for you.

I'm not trying to dumb it down, but it is really that first principles sit with your team and go, what is it that we need from this procurement? Start from that position. Just enumerating that out and having an outcomes focus, you're kind of halfway there, to be very honest.

Emily Wehbi: Thank you so much, everybody. So, now let's go back to the phases. We started with phase one: how to decide if procurement is the right tool. Then we just finished our discussion on phase two: how do we structure the procurement and structure the contract? Now let's talk a bit about the last phase, which is advice related to the management of the contract.

So, do you have, opening it up to the panelists again, advice for managers listening today that may already have a contract in place and they're doing the day-to-day oversight of the performance of the work, or for those that are about to enter into that phase.

Lysane Bolduc: I'm going to start on the second phase, in fact, to complete it a little.

[00:47:39 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen.]

Lysane Bolduc: One of the things we haven't said yet, which I think is important when we're structuring the scope, is to establish milestones—very specific milestones. Because it's going to take a while to deliver everything. If we wait for the final product, it gives us little opportunity to check in as the work is being done. I think that I will revisit the specific example of information technology. In that field, sometimes it's easier to conduct short tests, short beta testing perhaps, and then check whether we have the right approach before continuing to the next stage. I think that within the scope, we should set milestones to be sure that we are giving ourselves permission to check what our supplier has been doing over time. So, that is what we do at the third stage, which is contract management. We check whether the supplier provided what we expected in step one, step two, step three, and so on, progressively. This allows for a course correction when that is not the case rather than—to use Emilio's example—drafting the super easy report. At the time of the contract, we could mention that there will be two interim reports. One report will be delivered three months before the end of the contract and we expect this, this and this in it. Another report will be delivered one month before the end of the contract, and it will be a draft of the final report. That gives us another month to make sure we have what we want. Whereas, if everything we put in the contract is a final deliverable, well then it's over. We will have spent all the funds with no opportunity to go back to the private sector to tell them “That's not quite what I wanted.”

[00:49:27 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emilio Franco: So for phase three, I would also say that, as Lysane has explained, at the end of the day, it is the manager's role to manage the contract. This is essential.

[00:49:40 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: This is because this person is really supposed to work more directly with the supplier than the contracting authority. When the contract is implemented, it is really the manager who takes control of the supplier relationship, while always engaging with the procurement team. But the managers certify and review the deliverables. They check that drafts are well prepared and align with the contract expectations. It is they who work with the supplier to ensure that the final products are acceptable, at the end of the day.
So, it's very important as a manager, as a business owner, to truly take this role seriously to ensure that all aspects of the contract, including deliverables, are delivered. For example, the security aspect would require making sure that consultants each receive their own security code. It's a very important role.

So, at the end of the day, those managers that are managing the contract, they have to make sure that all those key things that are outlined in that contract are being delivered. And that's not just the final report, but that's security; that's privacy; that's accessibility; environmental things; anything that's specified.

And if there's performance issues, you have to make sure that you're picking up the phone and calling your contracting officer, your friendly, neighbourhood procurement officer, who will help you manage those issues. But letting things slide and then just signing off on a bad deliverable, that's not a good outcome.

We need to manage our vendors; we need to manage our suppliers so that we can get our final products. And that takes work and that takes responsibility of those managers. And you have to walk into a contract recognizing that you will have that role. And it's not just going to be a step back and wait for the deliverable. There'll be an active management there.

[00:51:40 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: Maybe I can just add to that, because I know a lot of times people are like, well, no, something happened, but I'm not the contracting authority. No, you're the person that's actually managing the relationship and making sure what you get is what you asked for. Which is why we go back to statement of work.

One other thing I'd want to underline is, while you're managing that contract, sometimes we've talked about deliverables, but you may be hiring people to augment your staff. You have to make sure that it's clear what those people are delivering and that you're not creating an employer/employee relationship. You cannot treat a contractor the same as you treat a member of your staff. They are a consultant; they are a contractor. Your contract has them delivering certain things, and you have to hold them to that performance.

So, that's really, really, really important. There's lots of stuff, and not just in our policies, but other Treasury Board policies, but I think that's an important thing that you have to be aware of as a manager.

Emily Wehbi: Okay, last question before we move to viewers questions that they've sent in. Can you talk to us a bit about values and ethics and how you see values and ethics being a foundation to the decision to procure, structuring the procurement, and then also managing ensuing contracts. So, any kind of final words from panelists on values and ethics?

Samantha Tattersall: Okay, I'm going to start, and I may be a bit scattered, but having been at committee this morning and been in front of committee a lot, there's a couple of things that, if you're looking at the issues that are going around, are really important from a values and ethics perspective.

Number one, it's okay to engage with industry. In fact, we talk about the importance of industry engagement. You have to understand the market, the capacity, the capability that's in the market. But you have to do it in a way that doesn't put in jeopardy any future procurements. That has to be fair, open, and transparent.

So, you can't create an unfair advantage. It goes without saying, we've heard in testimony where somebody, a supplier, was asked to develop a statement of work. Obviously, I don't have to tell all of you how that is a violation of values and ethics. Your engagement is important, but you have to make sure it doesn't compromise the integrity of the process.

The second thing I will say, because I want to be real on this conversation about issues that we've seen, is that you have to make sure that you don't put yourself in a position of a conflict of interest as well. So, you have to actually understand the conflict of interest directive and what your accountabilities are as employees, because that is a condition of employment.

One of the things that I just want to hit on – that's part of the mandatory procedure that you, as managers, will need to sign off before a contract is signed – that you have not directed any resources to a particular company. Let me just put that in plain language. If I am contracting with Emily, I cannot tell Emily that I want Emilio to be a subcontractor for Emily. My relationship is with Emily. I tell Emily what I need, what my outcomes are, and then Emily delivers it for me.

So, I think those are two important things that are out there in the environment, and I just really want to hit on it, because you will be attesting, going forward, that you're not in a conflict of interest and that you have not directed resources in any way. So, I thought I'd start off there.

Lysane Bolduc: Maybe I could add to what Samantha just said, specifically about when you're engaging with the private sector. The private sector is interested in talking to you when you have purchases to make. As Samantha said, you have to engage, you have to understand what they can offer you. The best way to protect yourself is to make sure you don't meet with them in a one-on-one environment. For example, there are a lot of people who are part of business associations. Almost all of them are part of an X, Y or Z association. Talking through associations is much safer than directly speaking to each of these individual businesses. A one-on-one meeting could make it wrongly appear that you are trying to facilitate work to one of these companies. I'll give you the example of the Canadian Construction Association, which is a group of private businesses that work in the construction field. But we—when I say we, I'm talking about the department and even our PSPC parliamentary secretary for a given number of years—we talk to them on a monthly basis. But we are talking to an association, not individual businesses within that association. So maybe that's a small tip to protect yourself, actually.

Emilio Franco: I think the final things I'll say on this is that at the end of the day, procurement needs to be fair, open, and transparent. And we say that often, but what does it mean? Fairness means that the process treats everyone equally. And that there's no bias in the process, that there's no hidden information or so on, that the process treats everyone fairly and equally.

Transparency means that the rules of the game are available to everyone, so that if you're a supplier, that you know exactly what it is that you're responding to, how you're going to be evaluated, and how that process is going to run, so that it's clear in terms of what the rules are. They treat everyone equally, and the rules are there. And then open means that everyone has that opportunity. So, the rules are clear, they treat everyone the same, and everyone knows what the rules are. And these are the fundamental principles behind how procurement is done.

And, I say that as long as you tell people what you're going to do, and you do it, and say it to everyone publicly, then you will mitigate potential risks in your procurement process. Layering on top of that, documenting your decisions, and then just going back to the pure code of conduct and code of values and ethics of the public service and reflecting on how those principles apply.

So, very simple things, like gifts. If you're in a procurement process, I know some departments say $50 or whatever, just don't. You can pay for your own coffee; you don't have to have someone buy you a coffee. You can pay for it. Take measures to make sure that you're avoiding those conflicts and those pieces.

And always think when you're doing that procurement, I think one of the key things around stewardship is around public resources being used responsibly. And that's something that has come up in a number of reviews as well, is that, even if the process was followed well, is the amount of money that was spent on the outcome appropriate and proportionate to what you got? And that's something to always think about as well, is that did you get value out of what you're trying to achieve?

Sometimes that's hard to figure out at the beginning that you may or may not get value, but always reflect on what's my budget for this? And if somebody asked me, is a couple hundred thousand dollars for that report, that might go on the shelf, good public money? You have to ask yourself those questions before you set on the process.

Emily Wehbi: Thank you so much. We've got approximately 30 minutes left, so I'm going to try to go through some of the questions. We've got a lot of really good questions, so I'll invite the panelists to answer,

[01:00:01 Emily Wehbi appears full screen.]

Emily Wehbi: but recognizing we're going to have a lot, so there will be lots of opportunities. Okay, here we go. And I'm not going to go easy on them, folks, so I'm going to ask as many as I can. The first question: Do you have any advice for managers who want

[01:00:20 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: to engage with industry, or with suppliers?

Do you have any advice for managers or business owners that want to engage with industry because they want to know their business, like some panelists alluded to, and they want to get best price and best value for Canadians? Do you have suggestions or guidance for those activities?

Lysane Bolduc: I'll start. So yes, talk to the associations that represent the [private sector] business line with which you want to do business. They will be super happy to meet you: They represent their members, the businesses. So, you can do that outside of a solicitation process in a safe way, to protect yourself. That comes first. Second, as I mentioned previously, comes the request for information. We don't really know what we're going to do, so we issue a request for information. It's done on CanadaBuys in a completely transparent way because, as Emilio has said, we're trying to give everyone a chance to respond. Those who are interested in the private sector will ask you questions and give you information. You make the answers public through the process. So to do that, you work with your procurement officers. Therefore, two ways: the formal way I just described; and the informal way, which involves talking to the associations representing the industry you want to do business with.

Emily Wehbi: Excellent. Next question. So, a couple participants have noted that there's sometimes a knowledge imbalance when the business owner is responsible for a program, but the requirement is IT in nature and doesn't always have the technical abilities required to support all the detailed requirements for IT professional services. Do you have any advice in those situations?

Lysane Bolduc: I was going to jump in. Emilio, you were going to?

Emilio Franco: Go ahead.

Lysane Bolduc: Okay. I think that's a big question.

[01:02:24 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen. Text on screen: Director General, Public Services and Procurement Canada. / Directrice générale, Services publics et Approvisionnement Canada.]

Lysane Bolduc: I think that this is perhaps the sector in which we, the Government of Canada, need to improve our knowledge internally. Why is that? Because it's – we'll call it a relatively new sector of activities. We're still defining the norms.

I'd say, as Emilio and Samantha mentioned before, if you must engage in that sector of area, start small. Do a pilot, structure your contract so that you have an ability to go off ramp. Don't go for the big thing you're trying to purchase in the IT world, first of all. So, that's one piece of advice.

Then, ensure that you retain what you've learned, because too often you'll engage those contractors that provide their input, they're gone, and then the knowledge is gone. It's too bad. We've paid for it. So, let's try to retain the information so that the next time around, and I think in that particular area, it will take time. Let's build the knowledge internally. Let's hire people, more people, so that these people outtake infrastructure.

Infrastructure, we have engineers and architects. They work for our various departments. They can write technical specification and go and then assess whether or not the deliverables meet what we asked for. We have some of those people, but we don't have enough in the area of information technology, we need to build that capacity. It's super important in order to be better and better at doing it in the future. And that's the area of the future, so we have to do it.

[01:04:02 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emilio Franco: I'll just add a couple quick notes. So, I think, as Lysane, you're just hinting there's no work that any manager in the Government of Canada will have over the coming years that won't involve some form of IT.

[01:04:15 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directeur exécutif, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emilio Franco: So, making sure that without procurement being involved, without the concept of procurement, informing yourselves on technology and just better understanding that space, there are courses with Canada School. You can have your professional development and learning conversations with your own managers. But that's important, just to build some general capacity, as digital public servants.

But what I would say is two things. One is that you're never alone in a procurement, so you always have your departmental experts to support you. And so, when you're doing something IT related <inaudible> be talking with your security folks to make sure that you understand any security considerations associated with the IT, because very few people are IT security, cybersecurity experts. But you have experts in your organization that are there to help you. So, talk to them, consult with them, get their advice. You also have experts in privacy. You have experts in IT generally, in your IT or CIO organization. They're there to help you. And so, don't feel alone, feel comfortable engaging with [them].

The other thing I'll mention is that, particularly when you're in a space where you're not technically inclined or you don't have an understanding of what is really out there in industry, as Lysane mentioned, engaging industry, but also focusing on the outcome that you're trying to achieve, as we mentioned earlier. The more you can be clear on, okay, whatever technology thing I'm trying to do, what am I actually trying to achieve as my end goal? If you can focus on articulating that, then let industry propose the ideas of how you can achieve that, and you can structure your procurement away, as Lysane mentioned, that allows you to off ramp if it doesn't work out.

But that's way better, particularly if you don't have the expertise, then spending two or three years trying to perfect your requirements and articulate exactly what the machine is going to do, what colour it's going to blink, focus on the outcomes. Get your experts to make sure that you have the broader requirements and surround security, privacy and so on there, and then engage industry on potential solutions. That would be a great frame, particularly if you don't have an expertise yourself.

[01:06:07 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: So, maybe just one thing to add is, Emilio's right, you will have technical experts that can help with the development, the statement of work.

[01:06:16 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Assistant Comptroller General, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Contrôleuse générale adjointe, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Samantha Tattersall: But also on your evaluation team, you can make sure you have people that have more technical expertise as part of your evaluation team of those RFPs.

[01:06:32 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Lysane Bolduc: And, to build on what Emilio and Samantha said, internally within your department, there are pockets of experts in information technology, but government wide there's more. There are centres of expertise, SSC being an example – I'm putting SSC on the spot. You're going to get many, many calls now – but think that everywhere in the government right now, what you're trying to achieve, someone else is probably trying to do something very similar. So, I think horizontal collaboration within your department and as much as possible get your hierarchy involved outside of your department will help you define the proper requirements.

Emily Wehbi: Excellent. We've received some questions related to reviewing timesheets; claims reviews; basis of payments; and contracts. Could you talk to us a little bit about the importance of structuring the payment; the basis of payment; and also oversight during payments once a contract is in place.

Lysane Bolduc: Emilio, you did not open your mic, so I assume that you want me to start. Okay, yes.

[01:07:49 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen.]

Lysane Bolduc: So, there's two things. I think that the preferred way to go is to define the solution or the outcome, as we said. If you must actually define tasks, or even hours that people will be working to supplement your human resources, then defining, for example, the hours of work during the day that are reasonable.

So, you expect the professional to work on your contract. If you expect them to work full time, one would expect that you don't get the hours between, say, 08:00 p.m. and 02:00 a.m. on your particular contract. You can be specific as you're defining your requirements that the resources made available to you will be available during business hours, and you can define reasonable business hours as part of your contract. You don't have to leave it up to the contractor.

[01:08:52 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Okay, next. Now there's a question focused on the mandatory procedures that were just published last week. So, the mandatory procedures include some new steps vis a vis checking with departmental human resources to see if there might be an alternative to procurement via staffing. So, is there flexibility for when there is a long-term deficit of employees in certain sectors, or is this a permanent block?

Emilio Franco: That's a great question. So, in the mandatory procedures, the line that actually highlights the requirement

[01:09:41 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: to engage human resources prior to procurement, it actually has a preamble that says: Where procurement of professional services does not align with a resourcing strategy or plan developed in consultation.

So, the idea there, and one of the themes of today, has been around planning. And so, if you have a long-term need or a space in which you are very well aware you do not have the expertise in house, and you will not be able to get the expertise in house for a variety of reasons, then what the mandatory procedures really pushes you towards is saying, I need a resourcing strategy that, rather than dealing with this on a one off basis, just outlines clearly that as an organization, my strategy to execute on my work involves public servants that do this, and I will have a need to contract for resources that do Y, and that's a planned activity that I've engaged with my HR and we've said, is this the right mix? Is this appropriate in terms of skill sets, and are there ways to knowledge transfer, and so on?

You've done that plan upfront. You only need to do it once, and then as long as your procurements are consistent with that plan, or that strategy, then you don't have to be engaging human resources every time you procure.

And the idea there again is to emphasize and place the importance on having a good plan to make sure that if you are going to have a long-term need for professional services, then it's planned for and that you're executing against that plan.

[01:11:09 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Thank you so much. Okay, next one. It's related to converting operating dollars into salary. So, do you have any advice for managers that are actually trying to save taxpayer dollars because there's a perception that if they convert their operating to salary, they won't get as far. That there will be with EDP, kind of like a salary tax. Do you have any responses or advice on that?

Samantha Tattersall: Okay, I'll wade into this question.

[01:11:46 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen.]

Samantha Tattersall: I think what you're saying is, there are costs and benefits to using internal resources and consultants. So, you always have to weigh those. So, the first thing is, what is the need? Is it actually better delivered through internal resources? That should be your starting point, and then it's figuring out how you resource it.

So, that's the underlying point. If one of the barriers is, yes, this should be something we should be delivering internally, but I don't have salary dollars. It's within that vein that we say you can convert operating the salary. Yes, there's an EDP hit, and that's legitimate. But there may be better value for money in having it internally resourced, maybe better value for money in terms of knowledge transfer, continuity, etcetera. So, it's not just the EDP transfer that gives you value for money.

Likewise, consultants can tend to be more expensive than employees, to be honest. And if you have read the OAG report on ArriveCAN, or if you have not, I would encourage you to read it because they did a comparison between consultant and employee. I think the comparison probably lacks some of the nuances that I would bring to it.

But I think you really have to start with the question, is it better delivered internally versus consultants? And then if there's any barrier to that, that's just one of the questions you need to ask to overcome a potential barrier that may not be a barrier.

[01:13:38 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: We have received a question from a participant who points out, or actually highlights, that the community right now feels like the complexity, the

The administrative burden is really increasing. Do you have any advice for the community that is at the same time trying to deliver results for Canadians, and do their best, but it seems that more roadblocks are being added.

Samantha Tattersall: Can I start this one? I'd like to start this one.

[01:14:10 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen.]

Samantha Tattersall: So, I'd like to start this because – I wish I could see all of you online. Maybe you're looking at me now and I'm staring intently into your eyes – but what I want to say is the guide, the mandatory procedure, is not more rules, necessarily.

What we're trying to do is help managers understand what their existing responsibilities and accountabilities are. And we're trying to embed it in the decision-making process so that there's a specific point of inflection for you.

So, things like developing a clear statement of work? That's not new. But we're providing guidance in how you may be able to actually develop those. The fact that you should plan for procurement is not new, but we're helping you think it through in advance. The engaging your procurement people earlier is not new. The actively managing the performance of the contractor is not new. If you're following the reviews, the issue is not that the rules aren't in place, and the answer is not more rules.

Emily, you said, would I have a parting message? This would probably be part of my parting message, which is we need to get back to basics and we need to have good hygiene within the procurement process. And as managers, what we're trying to do is we're trying to talk to you.

So, a lot of times in Treasury Board, we talk to the procurement people, but we're now wanting to talk directly to you, so you understand what your responsibilities and accountabilities are. We're working with the procurement folks to provide tools and supports, and there will be inflection points to help you navigate that.

But this is not new. This is you understanding your accountabilities and us embedding it. In a way, it's almost behavioural economics. There's a specific nudge at specific times so that we're ensuring the integrity of the procurement process, and we're protecting the idea of best value.

I say all of this and then I know the reality is, I need to deliver quickly. This takes too much time. And then I'll always go back to, you need to think about it early in the process. There are people to help you through it. Emilio, you're off your mics. You want to add.

Emilio Franco: So, Sam, you just spoke to the managers listening. I want to speak just to the procurement officers just for a moment.

[01:17:01 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: And so, what I'll say is that at the end of the day, everyone is trying to get a job done. And I have to believe, by and large, we have good actors in government that are trying to do the best they can for Canada, for Canadians, and do things properly and with integrity. The more things become complex, the more it challenges someone that is trying to get a job done to follow the rules. Or to make sure that they're not getting creative, because when you're trying to get your job done, sometimes you get creative.

And so, the more that we can do to help make the life of your clients easier, whether that's with tools and templates, or engaging with them early as part of the process, going around to areas of your organization saying, hey, got any procurements planned? How can I help you? The more you can play that client service role, the better outcomes you'll have in the process. And you'll have more overall compliance because people will view procurement as there to help, as opposed to trying to think about how they get around procurement to get their job done.

[01:18:13 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: Really interesting question. Is it considered a best practice to hire a third party to help draft a statement of work? And if this occurs, how do we protect the integrity of the process that follows?

Lysane Bolduc: <inaudible> first contract. So, I'm going to say if you are unable internally to draft your statement of work,

[01:18:40 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen.]

Lysane Bolduc: it's okay to go and hire help to help you draft your statement of work. If you do that in your first contract with that third party, make sure that it is clear that they're precluded from bidding on the large work that you're trying to do. That's the rule. That's the golden rule.

[01:18:59 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: I'm going to try to fit in one last question, and then we'll move to close. So, in the mandatory procedures, there is outlined a responsibility for business owners to ensure the active monitoring of the day-to-day performance of the work. Do you have any advice for the community to avoid creating a relationship with subcontractors or resources or creating privity with them?

Lysane Bolduc: I'm going to jump in, and I'm going to go to, you are monitoring the “what”.

[01:19:40 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen.]

Lysane Bolduc: Not the “how much”, and not the “who”. And you are monitoring the “what” from a company, from the people you hire directly, from the people you have a contractual relationship with. How that company delivers you the “what”? That's not what you're monitoring. That's the simplest way to put it. Hence why it's so important that your scope of work be defined very well upfront. Hence why within your statement of work, you need to have measurable deliverables.

[01:20:16 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emilio Franco: And I would add, think as well about, how are you going to govern your relationship with your vendor?

[01:20:22 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco:  And, on a very simple contract that doesn't have to be anything heavy, but as you get into more complex procurements or larger procurements, you want to think around, do you have regular meetings with your vendor to discuss progress? Do you have a conversation around the deliverables that are coming up, clarify the outcomes? As Lysane mentioned earlier, what are your interim steps and checkpoints that you've articulated, as milestones, or so on.

So, you want to be thinking about when you're structuring procurement and as you enter that relationship with the vendor, and particularly if it's going to be a longer term, that you have something formalized that is your governance, and not a committee, but your relationship management approach.

It's something you want to develop with your procurement officer, it may include escalation paths and various other considerations, but it's important to think around, you're now managing a relationship that has deliverables as part of that relationship. A contract is a document that articulates how a relationship is going to be managed. That's effectively what a contract is.

And so, thinking about how you're going to manage that relationship as part of performance management, really important at the onset and then kind of executing throughout so that you're managing your responsibilities.

[01:21:33 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Emily Wehbi: So we don't have much time left.

I'd like to just open it up to you, Lysane, Emilio, Samantha, to see if you have any closing messages, you'd like to share with our listeners today.

Lysane Bolduc: I would just like to say thank you. I know there are

[01:21:51 Lysane Bolduc appears full screen. Text on screen: Director General, Public Services and Procurement Canada. / Directrice générale, Services publics et Approvisionnement Canada.]

Lysane Bolduc: a lot of participants, which means there is a lot of interest. This is one of several conversations to come. We hope to see you during the next conversations as well. And thank you for your interest. I hope you will continue to be interested in what we are doing. Thank you very much.

[01:22:09 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: Do you want to go next, Emilio?

[01:22:15 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directeur exécutif, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emilio Franco: Sure. So, I think some of the big themes that we talked about today are really for managers. Start off with taking the time to understand your responsibilities in procurement. The Manager's Guide, I don't know how many questions are actually in there, but it helps you really frame and realize, what are the things you need to be thinking about as a manager when you're approaching a procurement for professional services. When that first inkling of you need support, to how you structure it, to how you execute on it.

Your procurement professionals are there to help you. And the earlier you engage them, the better. And I think part of that is as soon as you think that you might have to procure, a quick phone call to say, hey, here's what I'm thinking. Heads up. I don't maybe have money yet, or I still figure out the funding profile or so on but heads up. I think that's the best thing that you can do to help get the right advice at the beginning.

And ultimately reflecting always, in everything that we're doing here, around those core values and ethics, and remembering that principle of fair, open, transparent. Say what you're going to do, do it, and give everyone the opportunity and say it publicly, that generally will keep you out of trouble. That with core values and ethics and conflict of interest.

[01:23:29 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: I should have gone first. So, <inaudible>

Emilio Franco: You muted yourself, Sam.

Samantha Tattersall: Okay. It's because I'm pressing up against the button. Okay. I apologize.

[01:23:47 Samantha Tattersall appears full screen. Overlaid text on screen: Assistant Comptroller General, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Contrôleuse générale adjointe, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Samantha Tattersall: I'm glad this is being filmed. So, I'm going to say maybe four things. So, procurement, when appropriate. So, know when you should, that's the appropriate tool or not, that's the first thing. And you can work with your procurement officers to help you understand that.

Which gets to my second point, which is, I think your point, Emilio, roles and responsibilities. You have to understand what your role is. A lot of times you'll hear people say, oh, that's the procurement person's responsibility. Or, oh, that was PSPC. You have a role; you have a responsibility. You should know it, same as your procurement officer should know it, because once you understand it, you can be better at it.

Clarity. We've talked about clarity in your statement of work, clarity in how you manage performance. Clarity is always really important.

And then, manage your affairs ethically. And that's just good advice for all of us as public servants in anything we do,

[01:24:59 Split screen: Emily Wehbi, Samantha Tattersall, Emilio Franco, and Lysane Bolduc.]

Samantha Tattersall: but particularly in procurement, there are specific things we've talked about today. Like, if somebody develops a statement of work, they can't bid on the actual work. You can't direct resources to a contractor. There are things that you just need to ensure. If you're meeting with your contractor and you're talking about the contract and how it's going, meet in a professional setting, in an office space. Be guided by your values and ethics. They will not steer you wrong.

And then the last thing I will just say is, it's important that we deliver for Canadians. And it's a lot of talk about things that we should be doing and knowing and delivering. But ultimately, that's what we're here for, is to deliver for Canadians. And how we procure to do it in the best way, so that we're getting the best value, is really what's driving all of this. It's driving you as well. When you're implementing your program, don't lose sight of that. And as you've said, Emilio, the procurement officers should really be taking a client focus. You are also the client in this. And so, I know I don't come from procurement. You have to rely on people. So, reach out, and reach out early and often, is what I would say is my closing remarks.

Emily Wehbi: I would like to thank all the panellists for joining us today,

[01:26:32 Emily Wehbi appears full screen. Text on screen: Senior Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. / Directrice principale, Secrétariat du Conseil du Trésor du Canada.]

Emily Wehbi: as well as all participants.

I hope that you found today interesting and valuable. We look forward to continuing the discussion with you. And for those of you that will be at SIPM this week, please don't hesitate and come and introduce yourselves.

[01:26:49 Overlaid text on screen: Opening remarks; Key Considerations in Procuring Professional Services; Best practices and strategies for navigating the procurement process. / Discours d'ouverture; Principales considérations pour l'approvisionnement en services professionnels, Les pratiques exemplaires et les stratégies liées au processus d'approvisionnement.]

Emily Wehbi: And many members of the team will be there as well. Once again, thank you everyone and have a nice day.

[01:27:05 The CSPS animated logo appears on screen.]

[01:27:11 The Government of Canada wordmark appears and fades to black.]